www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Chotki

I have a question about what the Chotki must look like...must it be made only the one way with knots?

I have found that using the Chotki comes so much more natural to me than praying the Rosary, if that makes any sense. At first, I tried using one of my Rosaries to count, but while it worked out well for counting my Jesus Prayers, it didn't work so well wrapped around my wrist. At first I was too self-conscience to wear it anyway, so it didn't matter, but eventually I found that wearing something reminded me to pray often. Looked at Chotki on the net, found some inexpensive, but even those are out of my budget for a while. So then I went and found instructions on the web on how to make one. Knots, I thought, how hard can they be...wow! What a dumb question. I got the hand part of the knots, but then came the weaving part and I was lost in a large mess of string. I gave up and made a 33 prayer one, in black beads. Worked well at first, but it looked like a regular bracelet and I started to forget I had it on. Then I figured out a way to make a bead cross and had the tassle...no more problem, I was remembering to pray more often. Beads worked for me, didn't work for my son, who kept dropping his and breaking the beads(plastic no less...how do you break a plastic bead?) So back to the drawing board and after a day with my crochet hooks and various types of thread, I figured out a stitch to use that feels enough like a knot to make counting easy, though they tend to be a bit longer than those made the traditional way. My fifty has to be wrapped around my wrist twice, my thirty three is a bit loose.

My question is...is it okay to make Chotkis in this fashion or do knots have to be used? Is it a matter of what ever works, just so long as constant prayer is the focus? I am sure someone will get offeneded if they see it because they won't consider it 'real', but will it be because it offends them personally, or because there is only one way to make one.

BTW, I have seen the tape about how to make a Chotki, but we don't have a TV or VCR, so I had to use a website that had instructions, pictures and a Real Media video. The problem wasn't with the instructions I found, but with my own inability to handle the knots...with the crochet hook I can make one of fifty 'beads' in about thirty minutes, including cross and tassle. With my fingers alone, I am lost.

Vie

Dear Vie, in the days of the Desert Fathers they used woven palms, etc. for their chotkis. It doesn't really matter what it is made of, but the general traditional convention is to make them out of something natural, made by God, not man-made materials.

I prefer the 33 knot with the knots made out of wool and two wooden beads with the cross in between the beads at the end which goes over the wrist. I pretty much wear it all the time. This one worked for me because nothing was hanging down and I could do manual work and not have to worry about something dangling getting in the way. The 50 and 100 knot chotkis would eventually unravel and hang down.

There is no strict rule about making a chotki, you can use whatever works.

One will even find chotki made of wooden beads coming out of Russia, so of course if they did it first it is all kosher.

I guess the important thing is not what your chotki is made of, but that you use it for prayer. If you wear it and it reminds you to pray, then it is doing its job.

Dave

LadyHawke:

I bought one from Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Ellwood City, PA, a number of years ago. Over the years it has stretched somewhat, though it is still tightly woven. I have to wrap it around my wrist 4 times--it is 100 knots with no wooden beads or tassel. It also seems to have larger knots than many others I have seen. The cross is woven as an integral part of the whole.

In Christ,

BOB

I know a man who has collected a variety of prayer ropes (particularly from the Carpathian mountains) and they are made of all kinds of materials.

Like many others, I am originally from the RC Church and I used to know how to make the simple rosaries to given away. They were made with cheap plastic beads and a special, but very simple knot between the Our Father beads and the 10 beads.


Now I use that special knot for my prayer ropes. I get simple cord (on sale and with a coupon at fabric stores) and I make 100 knots for myself and for adults. I like to make 33 knots for children -- it's a reminder that Jesus lived to be 33 years.
:p

Dear Monastic Beginner,

When I visited a monastary for confession, the Elder gave me a hand knotted chotki with a bead. It has 33 knots. It was interesting to find out that when the monastics knot each knot, they also say a prayer, so that the whole rope is infused with prayer!

In Christ,
Alice

Thank you, Alice.
Yes, I pray when I make the prayer ropes.
However, I do understand that are specific prayers for making the "official" prayer ropes from black wool. I usually pray the Jesus Prayer as I go along.
:p

I found myself saying the Jesus Prayer as I crocheted each knot...the day that I was trying to work out how to do and then actually made a few that I thought would be okay, I estimated between three and four hundred prayers, definately a productive day for me

Thank you everyone for your posts...I had tried a different variety of yarns and threads to get what I wanted and ended up with a four ply cotton thread, so I guess all natural materials work out best for a number of reasons. And I didn't realize that one was supposed to pray while working on the knots, but I did find myself saying the Jesus prayer with each 'knot' I crochet...I averaged quite a few that day so even if I didn't get a rope that I liked, it was still a very productive day

I managed to ask the Pastor today what he thought, he told me what many of you have said...it's not the rope itself that really matters, it's that I pray with it. I could have one that is made perfectly, but if I never pray with it, it's worthless.
So now my son wants a hundred fifty one...when I finish it, I may as well do the three hundred, I know he'll want one of those next...

I personally think Jesus was very pleased at your efforts. After all He is the one that gave you the gift of creativity.

Now this one may really sound different. My husband teaches 7th grade ECCD and the kids taking responcibility for prayer is a big part of that year. So I decided it would be good for them to make prayer ropes. I talked to the head of our program and she gave me the OK to go ahead, though it isn't 100% natural. You know the chains like dog tags were put on. Well we used that only a larger version. Then my daughter spent time with the kids teaching them to do a half knot. So we litterally tied bracelts, each one of those beads with twine,so the bead stuck out in the center of the rope, each one having 33 beads. They really came out nice, father blessed them, and the kids have a stylish braclet to wear, and they do wear them, that they use for the Jesus Prayer. They just sit loosley on their wrists. This way no matter where they are they are reminded of the call to continual prayer, and it affords them the opportunity to pray with a rope without necessarily being noticed at school, but it also gives them the opportunity to share the prayer at their level with their friends.

Rose

Rose,
What a neat idea!
Tammy

Can any of the forum members suggest places to purchase chotki not made of wool? I have found a couple internet sites, but because of a nasty allergy to wool I have not located any to my liking that would not send me into a frenzy of hives.

Try Slovak Shop [stores.ebay.com] on eBay. I have purchased a chotki from them. They have various sizes of wooden chotkis imported from the Carpathian mountains. They are strung on nylon "fishing line" as I call it. Another site, which I have not purchased from, is The Slovak Shop [slovakshop.com] . They seem to be comparable to the ones at the eBay site.

I eventually decided to start purchasing beads from Michaels and making my own. It's cheaper.

Some day I hope to start a home business making and selling chotkis and rosaries, but I don't have the start-up capital yet to build inventory. And I haven't quite figured out yet how to make chotkis strong enough - my 6 year old has broken the cross off his twice! :p

Excellent ideas!!!

Besides Michael's, Jo-Ann's Fabrics has a wide variety of cords -- often on sale AND YOU CAN USE THE COUPONS FOR A BIGGER DISCOUNT, i.e., if you use the 50% or 40% coupon you can get, for example a cord that's normally $1.00 a yard for 50 cents a yard -- but it must be in one cut!!

This sounds funny to me , but there is a cord called "rattail cord" which makes medium to large knots and keeps a shine for quite a while even with continuous use. It's in the ribbon section at Jo-Ann's. Just an idea!!!
:p

I believe that the Byzantine Carmelite Sisters in Aliquippa, PA (St. George the Great-Martyr Parish) make chotki from materials other than wool and that they are available for a small donation.

Dear Zeeker,

I have made chotki out of rattail, and it works rather well. (In fact I have not been able to find any wool that is think enough for me to tie.) You can find many Orthodox monasteries which sell them from synthetic, non-wool materials. Or you can check places like www.easternchristian.com [easternchristian.com]

My mom has a few wooden chotki imported from the Carpathians for sale. If you're interested, send me a private message.

Dave

Tammy wrote
Some day I hope to start a home business making and selling chotkis and rosaries, but I don't have the start-up capital yet to build inventory. And I haven't quite figured out yet how to make chotkis strong enough - my 6 year old has broken the cross off his twice! [Razz]

I think you start getting start-up capital selling one or two at a time. My daughter started doing her stuff when she was in 7th grade if I remember right, she will be 21 in Nov. and is a Massage Therapist. I bought her a book and a ball of hemp(for jewelry not smoking :p ) to make necklaces with, actually I think it was because she saw an anklet she wanted. She does lovely work, her knots are exceptional, she is so creative, not work like you see sold so cheap in the stores. I think one of the nicest peices is a necklace she makes with a wooden Antiochiean Cross on it. Then when she made the braclets with the kids, she had been making a similar braclet just for general wear, but it put a whole new meaning to her work. So the metal part of the beads show through and you just pull the beads through your fingers as you pray. I guess that is what I wanted to say, just take the first step, and Jesus will make the way.

At the craft stores they have some line like fishing line which they use for jewelry that should help to hold the crosses on. GO FOR IT!

Rose

Dear Friends,

Yes, there is no hobby or cottage industry that is more rewarding or relaxing than making prayer-ropes!

I think one way of "standing out" in this "market" is to make different kinds of prayer ropes.

For example, one could make and advertise the Celtic prayer rope which was a 33 bead counter with a Celtic Cross.

One could make the Western "Pater Noster" prayer rope which was one long rope NOT joined at the ends.

One end had a Cross and the other end a tassel. These came in either 50 or 150 bead sets.

It was St Basil the Great who first laid down the rule that a knotted cord was to be 100 knots divided into groups of 25 with another, divider knot or bead.

In the 17th century, the Russians began making their prayer ropes out of leather and differently - one could make them as a regular wool chotki though.

On this the "Old Believer" chotki, there is a large knot after the first 12 knots for the Apostles. Then follow 38 knots for the weeks and days our Lord spent in the Womb of His Most Holy Mother, ending with another divider knot.

Then follow 33 knots for our Lord's 33 years spent on earth, ending with a divider knot.

Then follow 17 knots for the 17 prophets.

Above the Cross can be three knots, as occurs on the Old Believer "Lestovka."

One could also make Rosary Chotki's or 50 or 150 knot chotki's or komvoschinia divided every 10 with a red divider knot for purposes of praying the Rosary.

And this would be the closest to the original form of the Western Rosary!

And then one could make 300 knot chotki where 300 Prayers represent one of the 20 portions of the Psalter in Jesus Prayers.

Alex

Dear Dave, just as a hint generally coarser wool (less than 46s) works better to make a Chotki, as fine wool while much less rough is harder to work with, to card, spin, etc. by hand because of the fiber size.

The wooden Carpathian chotkis are very nice. My wife always gets comments on her wooden "bracelet" and gets some very interesting responses when she explains what it is.

Oh I just love Alex's history lessons

I am so glad I asked this question, everyone's responses have been great and now I am no longer worried that I may not have a 'correct' chotki.

The first one I made was with 33 black beads and I put a beaded cross and tassle on the end. The idea of making it with wooden beads is very interesting and Rose, I love the idea that you and your daughter came up with as well. My kids love those ball chain and hemp bracelets and my daughter would probably love to have one made this way.

Vie

CIX!

I got a Russian princess friend to do one like this, with a knot cross at the end... exactly in the form of a western rosary, with a bead for the Our Fathers, for my mother (who uses it for both).

The Russian princess (who's a ROCORite) when handing the finished product to me, asked what configuration that was, as she's never seen it before. You should've seen her face when I told her that was the western Rosary

Just my two obols!

in Domino,

Edward

Edward...
I bet her look was priceless...

Vie

There are so many Russian princesses running around... Is she the one that wrote about the Jesus Prayer?

Are there any sites with instructions on making Chotki?

Dear Edward,

In actual fact, I once saw a photo of St Seraphim's relics - and his prayer rope or Lestovka was shaped in exactly that same way - divided every ten knots with a larger bead.

In fact, in England the larger beads or "Our Father" beads were called the "gaudies." When you are in London, you know that the street near St Paul's Cathedral or "Paternoster Row" was where the medieval guild of "Rosary-Makers" or "Paternosterers" had their shops and would display their wares outside the cathedral and other churches.

The Old Believers of Russia have ALWAYS had their "Bogarodychnaya Lestovka" or the "Prayer Rope of the Mother of God."

It had 150 small "steps" or babotchki divided every ten with a larger step.

So the practice of praying 150 Hail Mary's this way goes back a long time in Eastern Church history - the 8th century in fact when it was first mentioned as an ascetical exercise.

Today on Mt. Athos, monks are obliged to make a full prostration to the floor at each "Hail Mary" as they pray up to 150 a day.

I like the idea of having a prayer rope with 150 knots for the Jesus Prayer - a true "Jesus Psalter" even though this is the name given to the old English Psalter of the Name of Jesus especially used during the Recusant times of the persecutions.

Alex

Dear Rose,

Thank you!

It is said that there are people who speak what they know, and others who know what they speak.

I think I'm the former . . .

I've also seen small wooden fishes with beads on them for purposes of praying produced by the Russian Church.

These are often given to people in hospital and the fish symbol is offered as a meditation on the Name of Jesus etc.

This is a version of the "prayer stick" where notches were made on a long piece of wood for purposes of counting prayers.

Alex

http://www.wattfamily.org/prayerope.html

I found a video from Ligh n Life Publications that shows you how to make a prayer rope.
I bought mine from www.easternchristian.com [easternchristian.com]
Very nice Eastern Catholic/Orthodox Supply Store.

In Christ+
Daniel

http://www.light-n-life.com/shopping/order_product.asp?ProductNum=HOWT179

Hmm thank you Daniel for bringing this up again - it seems to have started whilst I was away.

Actually I now have 3

A wooden beads one which I found in Lourdes - very simple and plain - just 33 beads - no dividers and a plain squared
wooden cross . This one lives in the armrest on my side of the car

A lovely black woollen one given by a dear friend

And one from a Serbian Orthodox Church made with Job's tears seeds - now that has a wonderful feel as you use it - it is made with a cross covering the fastening of the cord again just 33 beads

Since the day I dropped my black one in Church [ an RC one !!} and I had to explain to a little old lady what it was I will admit that it has not left the house !

I take my hat off to those who can make such wonderful things - they just demand to be used for prayer .

I hear the knots on authentic knotted prayer ropes are very difficult... Looked at the pictures on the website I posted earlier and it looked so confusing I didn't even try!

However, the current issue of Beadwork magazine has an article on Felted Beads. From the sounds of the article, a felted bead is a lump of wool fibers rolled into a very tight ball. I'm a bit skeptical, but going to try making some of these beads and see how they hold up. If they hold up well, I may start making chotkis out of them.

Woolen beads that are not knots... It might be an interesting alternative. As long as my husband doesn't leave his in his pants pocket when it goes into the laundry!

Dear Friends,

I still can't recommend the "knotted cord rosary" highly enough!

The Confraternity of OUr Lady, Star of the Sea, sells them at two bucks U.S. per pair.

My entire family - and friends - now have one and they love them!

I would love to know how to tie them.

I read on one site that this knotted cord rosary was what the Dominicans and other religious initially had - and that they all wore them wrapped around their wrists like the Orthodox priests and monastics do today.

Alex

Alex,

Would you please post their address again ? Thanks

Alex,
I'm not sure if this is what you have in mind for "knotted cord rosary" but here are directions for making the knots between beads on cord rosaries. I have seen directions for rosaries where the knots ARE the "beads" and they are tied the same way...
The Rosary Shop - Cord Rosary Knots [rosaryshop.com]

Oh, and here is a site for an organization that makes the ones where the knots ARE the Beads... They have videos, too.
Rosary Army [rosaryarmy.com]

Tammy

Dear Tammy,

Yep, you got it!

There was a tradition in England to sign one's letter: Your humble beadsman.

To be a beadsman was the lowest paid position in European society at one point. A lord could pay a beggar to follow him around while praying for him on rosary beads all day . . .

To say that one is another's humble beadsman meant that one was offering to do that service, praying for them, free of charge - and so it was at once an act of great humility and piety.

And the word "bead" although today meaning the knot or wooden bead, was formerly the old English word for "prayer" from whence "beg" comes from as well as in "St Bede the Venerable."

Your humble beadsman,

Alex

Alex,

I think I heard that somewhere about "bead" coming from "bede" which meant "prayer"... I find etymology quite fascinating. Modern English has so many roots that it is fun to try to guess where some words come from! And some, like "bead", you'd never guess without a little history lesson like that!

I have a knot-tying tool I bought for less than a dollar at The Rosary Shop. But they charge $6 S&H on every order so you need to buy other stuff with it or it's costing a fortune! They do sell cord to make the rosary with, too

I find the difficult part of tying the knots is getting them where you want them without messing them up. I hear it just takes a little practice. I haven't gotten much practice yet because I usually make chain or flexwire rosaries with glass or wooden beads (and I'm expanding my line to include stone beads). My chotkis are strung on nylon "fishing line" or on flexwire. One of these days I'll sit down and really practice the knots!

Tammy

Slava Isusu Christu!

Friends,

I think the most amazing thing about making chotki are the knots themselves and the mind that came up with these knots in the first place. Such a mind makes that of St. Thomas Aquinas look simple! :-P

In Christ,
mikey.

Dear Tammy,

I'm sure all your work in this regard is "knot-bad!"

I'll get myself that tool and some supplies.

I love fiddling around with things like that - I could leave the computer key-board alone if I got into a hobby like that!

I'm the son of a seamstress, you see, nervous fingers . . .

Alex

Dear Mikey,

Yes, that story about how St Pachomios fought with the evil one who kept breaking up his knotted cords until Pachomios made nine knotted beads and the evil one couldn't bust those up.

Poor Pachomios - he had a devil of a time . ..

Alex

Alex -

I love to work with my hands. If I had anyone to study with, I'd be an iconographer! But, alas, all I've got is a book on it, very little talent at drawing the human face, and no information on the spiritual side of iconography! (I know you're supposed to pray and fast, but are there specific prayers you pray? How long do you fast, and what kind of fast - simple abstinence, strict abstinence, etc.?)

So for now I've settled for rosaries and chotkis while my paints beckon from the bedroom shelf...

Tammy

Hey, everyone!

I made my first sale of a handmade chaplet to a friend at work, and now he is commissioning a rosary too! Meanwhile, I will be listing a rosary on eBay today for the first time.

I'm so excited to be starting my new business! I've even got a name - "Chaplets & Chotkis". It's slow going because I don't have the capital to buy beads for a lot of rosaries and chotkis at once. But at least I finally made a sale!

Tammy

Dear Tammy,

So could you review what kind of chotkis you make?

Alex

Wood bead ones like the ones they make in the Carpathio-Rusyn mountains (showing my Ruthenian side!) and Czech fire-polished bead ones which I don't have any tradition for, I just like them 'cuz they're pretty! Haven't tried the knotted style yet.

Glad you're back on the board. Good luck on the job hunt.

Dear Tammy,

Thanks!

How much do you charge for chotki of the wooden style?

Or is that something I should speak to you about privately?

Alex

I suppose the administrators would prefer that we conduct business transactions privately . I PM'ed you my email address last week - if you don't have access to it anymore, PM me and give me yours.

Dear Tammy,

Actually, if the Administrator sees this (why shouldn't he, he is all-seeing!), perhaps he will be kind to return my pm privileges . . .

I asked him to take me off in the heat of my hissy-fit last week . . .

Aren't I a bad boy?

Alex

You could always join my eBay secret santa group. Then you'd get my email address from there. And maybe you'd get a chotki for Christmas!

Seriously, I just don't like to post my email address on a bulletin board. You never know WHO might surf through, pick it up, and start spamming me!

Dear Tammy,

My e-mail is back up again.

I guess the Administrator is lurking in the background watching all of us here . . .

Good for him!

Alex

OK, I sent you a PM.

Oh, Alex, I forgot one more thing. I assume you want a cross, not a crucifix? If you are interested, we have a woodburner and are experimenting with the idea of burning a tri-bar cross onto a wooden cross... (Do Ukrainians use the tri-bar cross?) Or did you just want a tassel? I haven't tried that yet.

Dear Tammy,

That's fine - whatever is easiest!

Chotki often have a Greek Cross and wooden chotki need not have a tassel.

God bless,

Alex

The chotki that I keep next to my bed consists of 10 wooden beads about 1/2" in diameter, on a string with a plain small wood cross. It is from Optina. I have a devotion to the Optina Elder Saints.
Silouan, monk
PS Happy Thanksgiving to all those celebrating that day on Thursday! My spiritual Father, a Trappist hermit, told me that Thanksgiving is one of only two days that the monks eat meat. The other is the Fourth of July. :p

I know this is a really old post, and I hope the adminstrator doesn't mind me resurrecting it...

I've never seen a wrist chotki in anything other than wool, and I remembered this post and got to thinking that people who are allergic to wool can't use a wrist chotki if they're all made out of wool! So I did a little R&D and came up with a wood bead wrist chotki on a stretchable cord so it will fit over the hand, and a gemstone version on memory wire for a dressier look like a rosary bracelet.

They are available on my website if anyone is interested.

I'm always looking for new things to add to my product line, so if anyone has any ideas please feel free to let me know.

Tammy

Dear Tammy,

You, for one, will never pull any wool over anyone's eyes in this respect!

Alex

www.easternchristian.com [easternchristian.com] has many beautiful prayer ropes (chotkis) as well as lestovkas. Many varieties and prices.