www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Alex, Otpust and Indulgences

Alex,

You wrote


1) Putting words in another's mouth must be verboten here. I am not talking about Otpust as an RC practice! There are Orthodox Otpusts here in the USA and I am sure in Canda as well!

2) Are you making otpust = indulgence? If you are, you need to tell me. I did not (here Otpust = Pilgrimage), I think my post on the other thread was rather to the point. That (otpust), while being the way that the word (indulgence) is sometimes/oftentimes (?) translated and is reputed to be the origin of the term otpust = pilgrimage (a place where an indulgence is obtained), is not what I was referring to.

I only used the word indulgence and that is what I was talking about. Do you think I was never at an Orthodox 'Otpust'? Were you not?

Otpust you must remember is the 'dismissal' at a Divine Service. I am not going to ramble about how that name got applied to a pligrimage or to indulgences. I do know too that in modern Ukrainian it should be Выдпуст (spell check Alex?)

I was addressing the issue of Indulgences. Remember the alleged selling of them is said to have sparked the Protestant Reformation in the West? That notion of undulgences being tied to the understanding or remission of sin is absent in Orthodoxy. Absent. So, it is a Latin accredition (addition).

That was my point.

Bob

Dear Bob,

First of all, if there are things that are verboten here such as that, we all need to be apprised of it.

So far, we're discussing terms and terminologies and trying to understand them in the context in which we use them.

The modern Ukrainian term is "Vidpust" without the "myahkey znak."

Yes, "Vidpust" refers to the dismissal.

Yes, "Vidpust" can also refer to an indulgence which is often associated with a pilgrimage.

I've never been to an Orthodox vidpust in North America. Which ones are held and are they truly called "vidpusts?" And are they held by Churches founded by former Greek Catholics?

Poselianin uses the term "Odpust" but only as a foreign term to Orthodoxy.

And the parishes he lists were all former Greek Catholic parishes.

"Vidpust" such as used today in those Orthodox parishes and in any others, I surmise, derive from a former Greek Catholic usage that has been "Easternized" over time while keeping the term as part of the Eastern Catholic cultural baggage that converts and their descendants feel comfortable with.

And I never implied a hard and fast interpretation of what you said.

"Verboten?" You are against basic democracy in discussion? Sorry for not being as purely Orthodox as you! I meant no disrespect or offence.

Alex

Alex,

My verboten is directed at simply changing the conversation and trying to make it appear that I, or anyone else, said one thing when the unchanged written record reflects otherwise.

There is no soft sign friend, perhaps your screen is not clear? ы is the letter called "yery." (spell as you will)

Unless there have been changes in the Ukrainian language very recently ы is part of the language (I do not claim my spelling of Vydpust is right though.) (Others more proficient please fill in the gaps!)

Perhaps it is not as normal as I thought (in Rusin it is, right guys?) Perhaps it is not even Ukrainian, maybe it is just Russian and Rusin.

Let's just forget the rest Alex and rest, OK?

Dear Bob,

But there is no "b" in Ukrainian "Vidpust" - that's the only point I was making.

And the fact that the Slavic Orthodox Churches, Russian and Ukrainian, have taken over Latin practices and adopted them in some areas is something that we can see for ourselves.

So when you say, "See, you Greek Catholics are Latinized," all I'm saying in return is that there are Orthodox Churches and regions within them that are so Latinized as well.

Now that you see my point, we can truly let it rest . .

Alex

Alex,

Perhaps this is not a Ukrainian letter anymore, in any event when you pluralize for instance, zhena to what zheny? How does that -y look in Ukrainian, in the languages I am familiar with it is жена and жены the ы = y, not a soft sign plus another letter.

Obviously I was wrong

Dear Bob,

No, you are obviously not Ukrainian!

Alex

Dear Bob, (Alex, pay attention please!)

The Ukrainian vowels (sorry, no Cyrillic) are a, e, ye/je, i, yi/ji, y, o, u, yu/ju, and ya/ja. There is no such letter as "b|" like in Russian and Rusyn.

Plural of "zhona" (Ukrainian is really more "zhinka") would be "zhony" where "y" looks like the Russian "i" (the backwards N). In Rusyn it would be as you typed, "zheny~" where y~="b|".

The correct Ukrainian is VIDPUST where I=i pronounced 'ee'.

The old "Galician Russian literary language" (using the etymological alphabet) had the b| letter even though most Galician dialects don't have that sound. On the other hand, almost all Rusyn dialects do have that sound. Church Slavonic, of course, uses that letter, but when Ukrainians write Church Slavonic with the modern Ukrainian orthography, the b| letter is changed to the backwards-N.

Dear Lemko,

Excellent!

I'm having trouble getting used to the new Ukrainian spelling of today, never mind of yesteryear - so I do beg your INDULGENCE.

For example, "PatriArch" is spelled with an "a" Russian style rather than with the "Ya" or backward "R."

Back to my "Modern Ukrainian Grammar."

Alex

[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Lemko,

So, modern Ukrainian has neither the yery as a letter of the alphabet nor the sound?

I an accept that, my exposure to Ukrainian is quite deficient. Let me ask you this however, I hear many self-proclaimed Ukrainians pronouncing what you and I would write as -y- (here in Pittsburgh as I am sure you know, the Ukes say pirohy with what sounds to me like a distinct yery).

How do they if that sound is no longer present in their language.

Bob