www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology And with your spirit.....

I was having a discussion with my formation director at the dinner table the other night and the topic of the new translation of the Mass came up.

He is of the opinion that the "And also with you" is much better than "And with your spirit". He admits that the latter is more faithful to the Latin but his argument is that with our current "anthropological knowledge" (I do not understand this and he did not explain it) that the former is a better fit. He argues that tradition and what the other Churches do is not a good enough reason to us the latter.

Can someone explain to me why "And with your spirit" should be used and what it is really saying?

Thanks!


David, Byzantine Catholic and Carmelite pre-novice (postulant)

Dear David,

My purely speculative guess would be that when one wishes peace to another in the true Christian sense, we are wishing peace of spirit to the other.

In Christ,
Alice

Not to make light of this, but I heard a joke from an RC Trad in Northern Ireland who detests the whole Novus Ordo scheme of things.

At the beginning of Mass, the priest notices that the always mandated microphine is not working. The dialogue goes like this:

Priest: "There's something wrong with the mike".
Congregation: "And also with you."

See the following link, in my opinion there is a world of difference, with "and also with you" being in line with the de-supernaturalization and over humanization of the Latin Liturgy. Thank God many corrections are being made.

http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=55351

Peter John

DavidB:

First of all it is not just tradition and what other Churches do. This is exactly how the phrase has been translated into the Spanish, Italian, and French Novus Ordo Mass as far as I know. "And with your spirit." I don't know about any other languages, but the romance languages closest to Latin translate it thus. Why is English different? Why would it need to be?

Definition from Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: an�thro�pol�o�gy
Pronunciation: "an(t)-thr&-'p�-l&-jE
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin anthropologia, from anthrop- + -logia -logy
1 : the science of human beings; especially : the study of human beings and their ancestors through time and space and in relation to physical character, environmental and social relations, and culture
2 : theology dealing with the origin, nature, and destiny of human beings
- an�thro�po�log�i�cal /-p&-'l�-ji-k&l/ adjective
- an�thro�po�log�i�cal�ly /-ji-k(&-)lE/ adverb
- an�thro�pol�o�gist /"an(t)-thr&-'p�-l&-jist/ noun

So if your formation director meant the phrase "anthropological knowledge" as definition number one, "and with your spirit" is the most correct. If your formation director is assuming definition number two than he needs to do far more than just throw the phrase out there without explanation. He has done you and himself a great disservice.

This is a perfect example of what worries me in the Latin Church. Rome has spoken, the accurate translations are there, yet a formation director in a seminary who is apparently attached to the bad translations continues to teach in error.

"When we say 'and with your spirit' we are not referring to the soul, but to the grace of the Holy Spirit, by whom those to whom he has been imparted have access to the priesthood.�
-Theodore of Mopsuestia, Homily 15
The meaning, expressed here by Theodore, and also found in other Fathers, is that the priest does not preside in his own person, or by his own powers, but by the grace of the Holy Spirit given him in ordination. I have heard �And with your spirit� explained as an (archaic) Semitic way of referring to the person. Others see in it a kind of clericalism. The Latin is usually, �Et cum spiritu tuo.� explicitly using the pronoun �with.� Greek more often has �kai to pneumati sou,� without the pronoun, �And [peace] to your spirit,� though we occasionally find �kai meta tou pneumatos sou.� as in the preanaphoral dialogue, responding here to the Scriptural greeting (2 Corinthians 13:13).

What a wonderful quote! Thank you, Father. In this light, "And with your spirit," (and with the grace of the Holy Spirit presiding within you by the power of your ordination) is obviously quite different than, "And also with you," (which is directed at the person and implies equal weight when coming back from a member of the laity in the same manner as it was said from the priest to the lay person.)

Isn't it understood in the east that a person does not say "God Bless You" to a priest, but only a priest says it to the person? It sounds like the same thing to me here. If I am right or wrong, this conversation has taken a fascinating turn. I love that every little phrase has such power and meaning behind it.

I attend the nearby Latin parish last Sunday, and it began something like this:
Presider:Good evening
Cong: Good evening, father.
Presider: Anyone else need a blanket?
Congregation laughs

The homily was decent

Then father decided that the big red Mass book was optional and had the altar girl take it. Father then said what he could remember and adlibbed the rest - including the "This IS the Lamb.." section which became new, hip, and updated... I guess in my mid-twenties I am too old to get it...

Wondering,

Is it really true you are not supposed to say 'God Bless You' to a priest?

I do that all the time. I didn't know it was wrong. What is the reason you are not supposed to say that? What are you supposed to say instead?

I don't understand how they can be priests for sooooo long and forget the words. You'd think they would have fallen into a comfortable routine by now. I see children saying the entire priest's part throughtout Liturgy, why can't the priest?

Nonetheless, I am off-topic. And I do find the topic to be quite interesting. I think I'll get me a blanket and huddle in for a while to learn.

According to this [orthodoxinfo.com] (last paragraph) it is so. Perhaps someone who knows how it is applied can respond with more authority.

I personally respond to a blessing with appreciation and if appropriate an acknowledgment that I have or will pray for the priest's intentions. Don't know what others do, though.

Just a quick note. This is not a seminary. I am what this community calls the pre-novitiate. In reality it is a postulancy. I do not know why they just don't call it that.

We come here for a year or more. While here we study and complete the necessary philosophy for the theologate (sort of like a seminary but for religious who live in their own formation houses) and for those of us with out our bachelors degrees, we work on those.

So my stay here will be a year and a half. Last year three guys moved on to the novitiate, one was here for 3 years the other two only one year.

Celebrant: "There's something wrong with this picture".

Congregation: "And also with you".

LOL. You do realize that the eastern construct is equally problematic in this situation, right?

Celebrant: "There's something wrong with this picture".

Congregation: "And with your spirit".

Some of the Syriac traditions use the expression "and with you and with your spirit" - which certainly indicates a distinction. Since Syro-Aramaic is itself a Semitic language, one would assume that the Syriac Fathers understood what they were writing.

Fr. Serge