www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Creed recited now?

Consistent with Lemko, I have seen either the old gray stapled paper (many falling apart now) or the reprints as commonly if not more so available as pew books than the Levkulic 1978 books. I think the great appeal of the 1965 and its various reprints is that it has the music and even then only one setting per text, usually. Unfortunately there are other nicer settings in prostopinje of many of the texts in the 1965 pew books to which the people never get any exposure.

While there is much to be criticized in the grey book, any idea that recitation vs. singing of the Creed is somehow suggested in it is just not true. There are no high/low rubrics for the Creed; the music is there and there is no indication of its optionally being recited rather than chanted.

AS far as reciting the creed....that isn't a Latinzation or anything.

I've gone to the Antochian Orthodox Churches and Greek Orthodox Churches as well...for couple years every Sundays...and they always recite the creed rather than sing it.

I've also been to other Antiochian Orthodox Churches in other states plus one in Salina, they recite it.

So we also recite ours at our Liturgy.

So don't be alarmed, because reciting it doesn'tmean the Church is going to another direction. It's just another option to do it...to choose if you want to sing or recite it. But just as long as everything else is sung (with an exception with the communion prayer of the people).

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Since the majority of Orthodox churches do recite it, it cannot be considered a latinization by any means. Even some very conservative Orthodox usages (ROCOR and Old Calendar Greeks) recite the Creed.

What can we say, the Galicians and Rusyns love to sing (at least they used to).

Sorry for double post...our BCC parish also uses the ubiquitous, old Levkulic books, but they are all with red hard covers. They do indeed have the indications for 'low' or 'high' liturgy as mentioned above...I was always confused and didn't know why this was necessary...didn't know about a 'Tridentine' connection.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

There are several things on this thread that are either incorrect or at least out of context.

(1) "The Divine Liturgy: A Book of Prayer for the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great," ed. Msgr. William Levkulic, and published in 1978 by Byzantine Seminary Press, has NO rubrics for "High Liturgy." It doesn't matter whether the covers are blue or maroon.

(2) "The Divine Liturgy of our Father Saint John Chrysostom: Music adapted from traditional chants for congregational use by the Inter-Eparchial Music Commissions of the Byzantine-Ruthenian Metropolitan Province" published in 1965 by the Eparchy of Passaic Press DOES contain many directions which state "HIGH LITURGY ONLY."
The cover on my copy of this is a faded green; it contains multiple melodies for many parts of the DL.

(3) "The Divine Liturgy of our Father Saint John Chrysostom adapted from traditional chants for congregational use by the Inter-Eparchial Music Commissions of Pittsburgh and Passaic" was ALSO published in 1965 by the Byzantine Seminary Press.
It is the so-called "grey book," which usually contains only one setting of each liturgical text
(the Trisagion is the exception). This book also has indications "HIGH LITURGY ONLY."

It is interesting to note that the musical notation of numbers 2 and 3 are not the same, even though they came from the work of the same commissions at the same time.

In regard to the chanting of the Creed: every church sui juris has its own forms and traditions. The tradition of the Ruthenian Recension, both in Galician and Carpatho-Rusyn practice, is have the Creed sung, usually by the assembly; if not, then by the choir.

Having Byzantine Catholic parishes adopt a recited version of the Creed because other Churches (whether Catholic or Orthodox) do so is not sound reasoning. Having the Creed spoken because "not everyone can sing" is a fallacious form of logic, because it could lead to other portions of the Divine Liturgy being recited as well. Ours is a sung DL, and the music (especially of the Creed) is not demanding melodically.

(Prof.) J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA

Dear Alice,

Nice to hear from you!

Most OCA parishes of Slavic background that I've attended seem to chant it in English only. But it is the primary dogmatic statement of the Church and thus our primary teaching tool. If a large per centage of immigrants are present, who know it in Slavonic, then they should chant it in both English and Slavonic, in my opinion.

In my own home parish, also in the OCA, I've had to pay in blood to maintain our recital in both English and Albanian. Although we are 50% or more immigrants, some of the American-born always push to cut out any liturgical Albanian. The priests seem to bend to their wishes since they are the ones who pay the priests' salary, or so it seems. (I don't get a salary).

With love in Christ,
Andrew

Dear Professor Thompson,

It is clear to me that it is my great loss never to have taken any of your courses or to have had you as a professor!

Alex

These books, unfortunately, are the ones sent out to the missions. What a way to begin!

Joe

I also have never seen the "high liturgy only" directions in any of the 1978 Levkulic books, but rather only in the 1965 Pittsburgh and its various later reprints. Can you get a copy of that, Slavyansky? It would be interesting to check out. Perhaps that was some parish-specific book that was developed or perhaps you are thinking of the 1965 Pittsburgh with the music.

It would be nice if a newer pew book could be printed with (1) all of the rubrics not distinguishing from "high" liturgy which is a complete latinization and (2) multiple musical settings of the texts.

Those parts of the Divine Liturgy marked �FOR HIGH LITURGY ONLY� in the 1965 Passaic edition (aka, the �Green Book�):

1: Entrance Hymn.
- Priest: �Wisdom! Be attentive!�
- People: �Come, let us worship ��

2: Prokimen.
- Priest: �Let us be attentive! Peace be with all. Wisdom! Be attentive!�
- Lector: chants the prokimen

3: Alleluia.
- Priest: �Peace be with you. Wisdom! Be attentive!�
- People: �Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia.�

4: Litany of Supplication.
- Priest: �Let us say with our whole soul ��
- People: �Lord, have mercy.�
�
- Priest: �For You are a merciful and gracious God, ��
- People: �Amen.�

* Filioque in included in the Creed, but in parantheses.

* The Eucharistic Prayer or Anaphora is not given throughout since it was taken silently.

* Instruction that "The congregation kneels" before the singing of "Holy, holy, holy."

* Note that the Institution Narrative is the "Consecration."

* Epiclesis is not given.

5: Commemorations.
- Priest: �Among the first, O Lord, remember our holy ecumenical Pontiff ��
- People: �And remember all your people.�

6: Litany.
- Priest: �Now that we have remembered all the saints, ��
- People: �Lord, have mercy.�
�
- Priest: �That this whole day may be perfect, �let us beseech the Lord.�
- People: �Grant it, O Lord.�
�
- Priest: �Asking for unity in the faith, ��
- People: �To You, O Lord.�

* Instruction that "The congregation kneels" before "One is Holy" is sung.

- - - - - - -

Does anyone know why these particular parts of the Divine Liturgy were chosen to be considered for "HIGH LITURGY ONLY"? And this, immediately after Vatican II!

That is an interesting point considering the date and its proximity to Orientalium Ecclesiarum. Perhaps the Liturgical Commission didn't think it applied to them.

It was during this same time that with the blessing of Bishop Isidore (Borecky) the bilingual English/Ukrainian Divine Liturgy books were compiled which had all of the litanies, choice of antiphons or Typical Psalms/Beatitudes, no "high liturgy only" indications, etc.

Two points:

1. The continued use �gray� and �green� books is not due to anyone desiring to perpetuate an inappropriate �High Liturgy� or �Low Liturgy�. It is more due to the lack of other books with music. In the mid-1990s I prepared two different liturgy books using the liturgicon as a model (which means that they do not have such things as �low� and �high� liturgies). Others have also prepared similar publications.

2. The publication of the �gray� and �green� books occurred at about the height of the latinizations. Bishop Elko knew that he had no authority to revise the Divine Liturgy itself and thus promulgated an excellent liturgicon in 1965. He did, however, have authority to say how the liturgy would be taken in his eparchy and his desires were reflected in the distinction of �low� and �high� liturgies in those books.