www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Looking for some advice/thoughts

Hi -- I just registered today. I was wondering if anyone who practices the Eastern Rite faith might be able to give me advice. To any moderators -- I hope I have posted this in the correct forum. Please move this If I have not and I apologize if I goofed.

I am a practicing Catholic of the Latin Rite. I grew up in Pennsylvania and spent one year in Seminary at St. Charles Borromeo in Philadelphia.

A few years ago my family and I moved to the midwest (I'm married with two children aged 8 and 4). I'm fairly Orthodox in my approach to the faith. Since moving out to the midwest I have struggled with the practice of Catholicism out here. I am NOT judging anyone, but I am personally not comfortable with the liberality of the Church I generally find in the midwest. I was originally interested in pursuing the Diaconate and now I'm not even sure of that given the environment here.

I have started to wonder if maybe God if asking me to discern more fully my place in the Catholic Church. Perhaps I am being called to the Eastern Rite -- although the closest Eastern Church is a good hour away-- and I don't know a great deal about the Eastern Church.

Any of you that may have changed Rites -- or those of you that have grown up with the Eastern Church I would love to hear thoughts or advice from you. Please post a reply or PM me. I really am listening. I know I could be happy with the Latin Rite in an area that maybe has a little more Orthodoxy to it. But does that mean I cannot be a happy Eastern Rite member or that our Lord is calling me discern further? Plus my children attend our parish school -- which is a great school. So my considerations and dicernment don't only affect me, but obviously my family as well.

God bless you for any help you may be willing to give.

I'm in a similar situation. I am Catholic, but I find the reverence of Eastern theology, spirituality and liturgy to be very appealing. Unlike you, an Eastern parish is closer to me: only 40 minutes away. And, I'm not married and I don't have children; so I don't have those factors to consider.

What I would suggest --and disregard anything that does not suit or sound right-- is this:

1. Talk to your local parish priest / leaders and ask if there are more traditional devotions or activities available in your Latin Rite parish. You are probably not the only one in your parish whop would like something more traditional. There may be something for you already there: Eucharistic adoration, rosary, bring the Eucharist to the sick and the shut-ins, etc. Perhaps part of you situation can be remedied by providing or participating in the very things you are looking for.

2. Make the drive to visit that Eastern Rite parish. If you have been bitten by the Byzantine bug, you will have an itch that you will need to scratch sooner or later. It might as well be sooner. And, you will find not heaven on earth but a parish: with its own good points and bad points. Maybe it will suit you; if so, bring your wife and together check it out. There is no rule saying you cannot attend it even though you are Latin Rite. Plenty of Latin Rite Catholics attend Eastern Rite parishes. And, simply attending an eastern Rite parish should not disqualify your children from attending the parish school. After all, you would not be quitting your parish; you would just happen to be going to another parish for Mass (maybe twice or so per month).

3. Learn. Read about the Eastern Catholic Churches: theology, spirituality, history, customs, etc. The fine folks at this forum can suggest many resources.

4. Keep your wife involved and respect her sensibilities. Your marriage is your own business, but I would add this caution because a change in religion can be a serious upset --or a serious blessing-- to a marriage.

I have to go. Hope this helped. God bless.

-- John

Okay, some generic advice for both Orthodox Latin and harmon3110...

First, the Eastern Catholic Churches are not a place to run from poor liturgical praxis in the Latin Church. You will not be happy because we will generally not provide the devotions that you are acustomed to.

Do come and see what we have to offer, but do not expect an "Eastern Mass" -- we do not offer the Mass (well, we Byzantines don't). Although the structure of the Divine Liturgy is similar to that of the Mass, the way in which we serve the liturgy is quite different.

Before making any decisions, spend time in the parish you are thinking of. Meet with the priest, the deacon (if there is one), the parishioners and get to know the people. Eastern Catholic parishes are culturally different from those of Latin parishes, even discounting ethnicity. Our fasting practices are different, we don't always have daily Divine Liturgy (in fact, that is not really a part of our tradition since we should be offering vespers and orthros more frequently). Because our parishes are much smaller than most Latin parishes people get to know each other.

Again, we are not place of escape. If one cannot come and fully embrace the entirity of our spirituality, then we may not be the place you are looking for.

On another forum I had a Catholic ask me if he could kneel to receive communion in an Eastern parish and was upset when I told him no, that's not our tradition. He wanted to bring his Latin sensibilities to the East. Here's a case where East is East and West is West -- and we don't mix the two.

Finally, pray! God does not always answer our prayers on our schedules or in accordance with our plans. Seek His will, not yours. Discover what His plan is and scrap yours. Certainly seek out counsel, especially from a wise Eastern priest, monk or deacon.

Fr. Deacon Edward

Thank you to both Father Deacon Edward and Harmon for your replies.

Of course you are right Father Deacon Edward -- the Eastern Church should not be and is not the place to seek refuge from bad Latin practices. My initial post implied that's what I meant. Truly I did not.

I just know that I am struggling right now. I am praying as you suggest. I have always had a problem with God's time and my own. I'd much rather have my prayers answered in my time! Seeking God's will is not always easy -- and I am guilty of not listening sometimes.

I will seek out an Eastern Rite Priest, monk or deacon. Again thank you kindly. God bless you both.

Dave

Orthodox Latin ,

Welcome

You have been offered good advice but if you are eventually called to the East - well you cannot refuse to answer that .

I just know that the first time I was able to participate in the Divine Liturgy - I gave up trying to follow along in the book - I just stood and looked and drank it in.

I never looked back - as folk here will agree.

It took me some years to decide what to do but finally I , after a lot of anguish, did it .

Trust God - He will place you where He wants you to be - but you have to help Him in that - you have to read and learn and ask questions

Anhelyna

Glory to Jesus Christ!
For many Eastern Christians a one hour trip is nothing.

Of course, with the price of gas today I would invest in a hybrid car!

Anyway, I agree with father Deacon Ed and everyone else who feels that the Eastern churches are not to be a refuge from poor liturgical practices. But you still have an obligation to yourself to become familiar with the eastern churches (regardless of your local liturgical situation) and now is as good a time as any.

I agree that you should get to know the priests and deacons of the church, and consider becoming a long distance learner if that appeals to you. One possibility is to join the 'one hour away' parish and make the trip once a month, filling in with visits to the local parishes and monasteries. As long as you are supportive of your new parish family you will benefit tremendously and may even wish to change jurisdictions.

If you do change jurisdictions you may wish to consider the diaconate once again. Even this long distance arrangement will not stop you if you are determined and sincere.

Good luck and may God bless you abundantly

+T+
Michael, that sinner

I am FURIOUS with you advice.

Where do you advise us to go?

I am so tired of Christian Easterners who say, "We have the Gospel but only on our terms."

Dear John, (Harmon3110)

Please take the time to reread Fr. Deacon Ed's post again, after you have gotten over being upset.

I am sure that he did not mean to insult *you* personally, in saying that you should not join the Eastern Catholic church. He was simply giving good solid advice--advice which those seeking Eastern Catholicism OR Eastern Orthodoxy should should heed: do not run away FROM something, but run TOWARDS/EMBRACE something.

Ofcourse I know you fairly well from this forum, I have the utmost respect for you as a person and as a Christian, and I know that you would never do anything without much thought, consideration and prayer. Infact, I always look forward to reading your well thought out posts! However, Deacon Father Ed may not know you as well as I do, as he isn't on board as much as I...do you see where I am going with this?

He is saying the right thing, though at the time he said it you may have thought it to be otherwise. May God bless you on your spiritual path...

With love in Christ our Lord,
Alice

How would you feel if an Eastern Catholic went into a Latin Mass, insisted on standing throughout the Liturgy, made a ruckus about refusing to say "filioque", and talked about how the Cappadocian Fathers were better than the Scholastics during coffee hour?

Dear Everybody,

I want to apologize for my outburst to Fr. Deacon Ed and everyone else. I should have calmed down and thought things through before I posted my response. The Eastern Churches have a right to maintain their traditions, and I am sorry that I suggested otherwise. I am also sorry that I implied that Eastern Christians are not hospitable to people who are seeking Christ. Please forgive me.

-- John

OL-

My $0.02 on the issue as a Roman Catholic who's seen both the bad "post-Vatican II Church", the good "post-Vatican II Church" (my Roman-Rite preference), the Traditionalist movement and the Byzantine Rite. This is just my $0.02; I could be wrong and defer to the more experienced.

Definitely go try the Byzantine Church. Stay there if you and your family feel it's the right thing.

However, don't necesarily give up on the Roman Rite. I have a few suggestions for you if you want to stay:

- there are good parishes around. I of course don't know where they are in your area, but a bit of wandering around and "parish shopping" might be useful.

- Once you find this parish, if it's inconvenient for you to get there I would SERIOUSLY consider moving to a place more convenient to it if/when you can. As far as I'm concerned, "access to the Faith" takes precedence over other considerations when I choose a place to live.

- [forgive me if this is a bit condescending] but even if you can't find a good parish, remember the Faith ultimately is not taught in the parish. It's taught in the family and in our prayer lives. A strong, prayerful family life will make up for any other "deficiencies" in your environment.

- finally- YOU need to get involved. In even the "worst" parishes I've seen there are a few people who are faithful and would love to associate with other faithful people. Find them, and spiritually nourish each other. If there are enough of you, or if you're brave enough by yourself, organize a Rosary society or something like that.

[confession to all: I've always been intrigued by the idea of having no options besides a "bad" parish. I would join the music ministry and try to take charge of one of the music-less Sunday masses. I would exclusively sing Gregorian Chant, and do my best to educate people on the great spiritual gifts of the Graduale Romanum . Gregorian Chant is after all on the books as the official music of the Roman Rite, and it IS in the Spirit of Vatican II.

And you might be surprised at how many people would welcome this. Unfortunately, that is not the path that God wants to take me down - at least for now.]


[Edited to add: John - no problem. AFAIC you are forgiven! ]

Thanks for the advice Marc. We are actually pretty active in our Parish -- and school for that matter. Unfortunately I have found that we (my wife and I) are in a definite minority as to our practices and beliefs.

I appreciate all who have posted -- it's heartening to find so many spiritual people on this board.

God Bless

Dave

John,

Not to worry! As Alice noted, I do not read as many of the posts here as I possibly should. My only excuse is that I work a full-time job, serve two different parishes, and serve as a police chaplain. That keeps me busy enough, but my wife likes me to also spend time with her and with my four grandchildren.

Nevertheless, my advice is always the same. Don't run from something to the East. One who wishes to join an Eastern parish must do so because they are fed there, find a match between their spirituality and the Eastern Spirituality.

This is not intended to tell people not to come to the East -- but rather to come to the East for the right reasons.

Fr. Deacon Edward

And your advice is very good indeed. I would never want to change Rites simply on a whim.

I was trying to paint sort of a broad picture of my situation in a short amount of space. I REALLY appreciate your taking the time to offer some advice. I will be following it.

God Bless

Dave

Dear John,

All is forgiven! Don't give it another thought!

Dear Dave/Orthodox Latin,

Welcome to the forum!

In Christ,
Alice, moderator and poster