www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Case Study #1

Dear Olga,

You rock! Right on!

Now I really know what it is to be focused.

I will try to emulate you in future!

Happy Christmas!

Alex

Olga,

In my case study you would have read how 'institutional' aspects of religion bothered them; hence, why they called themselves 'communities' and not 'churches.'

In studying Johnny C, they learned about a church that had many legalisms, fine theological points, canon laws, procedures, by-ways, hi-ways, etc. Such things were our baggage, not theirs.

How do you reconcile them with us?

Thanks for the compliments, friends. And thanks, DavidB, for your point-by-point answer with interesting parallels, etc.

If they don't care about Protestantism and its history beginning with Hus, then why don't they just become Catholic (go the "whole way" and become Tridentine, why not) and be done with it?

Uh, oh... that sounds like "only Romans are fully Catholic'. I don't think you wanted to say that. They are faithwise and functionally already Catholic — the issue here is can their way of being so fit in with the reality of the Ruthenian Catholic Church? A creative way to challenge the status quo — can/must that Church bend or change its ways to let this new, completely orthodox movement live and breathe? Why or why not? How?

Sorry if my doctored pic offended you, Alex. I meant it more as a tribute, like reverently playing a metropolitan in a drama (and after all, this thread is basically a "role-play' as they say in the corporate-training and psychotherapy worlds). No more offensive than a jolly bearded man in the local congregation dressing as St Nicholas, mitre, omophor, snake-headed staff and all.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

"How do you reconcile them with us? "

Cause them to so fall in love with us neither party cares about the institutional baggage or particularly wants to take time away from our infatuation to even talk about it. Sort of like with me and my late husband many years ago.

Olga Nimchek

For the record, I found Serge's picture to be humorous, and fitting to our THEORETICAL model! Let's lighten up for God's sake! Alex, you even crack jokes to Angela about you becoming "her" slave! Geez!

anastasios

If I were Metropolitan
I would convene a council of Buba's.
Am I on the right path Dr John?

Nicky's Baba

I'm afraid that Archbishop Michael will probably be a bit more strict...
I think it was Serge who said sometime ago that in Greece during the civil war priests were ordained who couldn't preach or hear confessions.
That's what I would do in this case-ordain only one priest per mission, (only more if needed, and no large amounts of deacons or minor orders, only as much as needed).

Then, I would require that at least one priest per parish actually go to a seminary and get a good education-either Pittsburgh, or maybe St. Vladimirs. Book-learining on one's own can go a long way, but I would insist on a rigourous academic course of study.

I would definately support the ordination of married men.

I don't know enough about the trustee issue, so I won't comment.

Unless enacted by the majority of Orthodox by this time, no deaconesses.

I would try to integrate them as much as possible, but definately in the first few years they will have to have a lot of oversight.

Also, I would encourage more monastic vocations more than anything-with that large of a number, surely some good can come for Eastern Catholic monasticism in America.

I would also encourage them to follow the Orthodox way of doing things, and to discourage Latinizations-but I would insist that since they are in communion with the Church of Rome, to occasionally attend Roman Churches, maybe learn some western prayers, the rosary, etc. (for PRIVATE devotion!) That way, they could be fully integrated into the Catholic Church, and feel part of a bigger family than the Pittsburg Metropolia.

All in all, a very good topic!

Cheers,

Michael

Serge --

You'd better make sure that some aggrieved person doesn't surreptitiously send that humorous picture to the higher-uppers -- that could raise some unpleasantness, I think.

Michael --

"maybe learn some western prayers, the rosary, etc. (for PRIVATE devotion!) That way, they could be fully integrated into the Catholic Church"

Hmm. I would have thought that the Eastern Catholics were "fully integrated into the Catholic Church" by reference solely to their own Eastern tradition, and that Latin practices (while legitimate) are not needed for purposes of integration into the Catholic Church (and more than Byzantine practices are needed for Latins to experience such integration).

Brendan

[ 01-10-2002: Message edited by: Brendan ]

Metropolitan Serge,

You had every right to include a photo of you being the new Metro-Archy. YOU played the part for the day.

To all,

I liked the many responses so far.

Olga,

Now, a church model based on LOVE I can accept. Sorry, Alex. But like all responsible relationships of love there are the fine details of order, something we would love to ignore. How would you, Archbishop Olga , establish order between this new group and your clergy? I'm sure that the love you speak about still includes paying the bills. I still like that LOVE theme. That is why I personally like the idea of a married clergy (as an option) because having a wife can serve as a daily reminder to a priest that his ministry is not to build up his ego.

Friends,

Classes have restarted and I'm a bit under the gun. I teach Theology, Comparative Religions, and Adult Basic Literacy. This topic is wonderful and I will respond Friday.

Christ is Circumcised...er...sorry, wrong feast day. ;-) It's sure fun being a Cathodox.



Dan Lauffer

Serge wrote: "New Skete-type variations or the experimentation at the Antiochian converts' old flagship church, SS. Peter & Paul, Ben Lomond, CA, under the liturgical scholarship of Fr David Anderson, don't faze me."


I think Fr. Dave is now with the Ukrainian Catholics.

Dear Serge and Anastasios,

My last post on this wonderful thread that seems to have gotten me into so much trouble.

This is what happens, I suppose, when outsiders comment on the culture of Pittsburgh.

I wasn't offended by the wonderful picture of you, Serge, I only said it was "flippant" as Brendan has also suggested.

To be "flippant" is not a bad thing, to be sure. I was somewhat taken aback by Edwin's comments somewhat condescending comments to me and I do apologise to him for not responding in a way that he found acceptable.

It is just that you are on me, Serge, for the "vagantes" so I found the picture to be a little more than humorous!

(You would make a handsome Metropolitan, though).

Anastasios, my references with respect to "Slave" in connection with Angela have to do with the devotion of the Holy Slavery.

This is a devotion whereby Christians renew their baptismal promises to Jesus through the Mother of God. In affirming Him to be Lord in their lives, they use the imagery of a "slave" or servant in so doing. Those of us involved with the devotion refer to one another as slaves etc.

Perhaps members of the "Slave Galley" should have explained this, but I've now done so.

I hope I was not critical of Serge, I was just commenting on Edwin's offense at my comments which he considered flippant.

Personally, I think this is a nice topic, but it is a little like laity trying to play church.

Said my peace, have a great life.

Alex

Alex,

To me, "flippant' had a negative connotation that "humorous' does not, which is why I reacted as I did. Understood. Plus I wasn't being a vagante, of course, but rather impersonating what an Orthodox-oriented Ruthenian metropolitan might look like.

Edwin,

Yes, Fr David Anderson is with the Ukrainian Catholics but not as a result of his liturgical experiments at Ben Lomond.

http://oldworldrus.com

Alex,

Your clergy has given you another try to make decisions regarding the F&B Church. This is laity playing church as much as the posters on this forum are playing theologians and political pundits. Two of your consultors have advised you that what is going on in the Czech Republic and Moravia has nothing to do with the F&B Church.

Jerry W. from his 80+ strong evangelical communities is still waiting to hear from you on their concerns. Your secretary tells me that those three priests are going to go ahead and send rosaries to their members and booklets arguing the case for keeping the Filioque in the liturgy if they do decide to join. One priest has already submitted his resignation letter and plans to get a few more presbyters to join him in protest. You also just received two dozen letters from clergy of the F&B Church expressing interest in attending your seminary in Pittsburgh to get re-educated in theology.

It's a new day, Alex. What will you do?



[ 01-10-2002: Message edited by: Edwin ]