www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Question? - Part I

Is the diffrence between the Eastern Church (your church) and the Roman Church cosmetic only? My church now says Mass in a social hall with a rock band for music. I find your Church and your mass more in line with the Catholic Faith and I am thinking about converting from one to the other. Any suggestions?

Dear Michael

Glory to Jesus Christ!

The differences are more than cosmetic, but they are less than fundamental.Certainly there is no "conversion" needed for a Catholic of the Latin Church to worship in a Byzantine Catholic Church (at least not in the sense of moving from one confession to another). On the other hand, the Byzantine Church has its own understanding of the Catholic faith: its own liturgical and spiritual tradition, its own ethos and inner life, which does make it different from Roman Catholicism. Some people find our "way" wonderful, and can easily make a home in one of our parishes. Other people cannot. All you can do is try it and see :-)

Stay in touch, and let us pray for each other!

In Christ
monk Maximos, sinner

Brother Michael, I share your concerns about the cultural reality of the US that leads the Roman Catholic community to attempt to 'modernize' the liturgical celebration into what is believed to be a 'contemporary' worship form. Unfortunately for the Church, over the centuries, the best artists and musicians contributed to the liturgy of the Roman community, with some additional materials from local communities, but, in contemporary US Roman Catholicism, there appears to be a dearth of high-quality artistic contribution to the liturgical celebrations. There should be a way to introduce contemporary music and artistic elements without turning the liturgical celebration into "K-Mart" liturgy.

While I am sure that our traditional Byzantine liturgical celebrations appeal to you and to other Roman Catholics who are less than satisfied with current RC liturgics, I beleive it to be a serious mistake to 'convert' to a Byzantine community for this reason alone. A person should rather be 'seeking' something in terms of theology and liturgy, rather than fleeing from an some unacceptable situation.

The reality of the matter is that the Byzantine Church is NOT just its liturgy, but rather a whole splendid spectrum of theology, ascetics, and, indeed, lifestyle. From my point of view, as a Byzantine of Greek background, I get nervous when my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters come to us as a refugee from an unbearable RC parish, but then try to integrate Western style devotions like rosary, Fatima, indulgences and the idea of purgatory, benediction, novenas, etc into the structure of a Byzantine parish. We Byzantines then are caught in a difficult situation: we want to be as welcoming as possible to all who come to us, but we need to make sure that we can remain who we are without being pressured to become something else.

My suggestion is that you should stay in the Roman Catholic communion and try to be a witness to the community that the current liturgical forms are not acceptable to all the members and that you would personally appreciate the ability to worship as you need to. All too often, many 'high quality liturgy' Western Christians flee to the Episcopalians, and the Roman community gets left with those who are 'clueless'. And as a result, the Roman Catholic community gets 'dumbed down' to the lowest common denominator. This should not happen. More aesthetical, liturgy-oriented Roman Catholics need to make sure that their voices are heard and that the clergy are aware of the fact that the 'easy way' of organizing the parish liturgy is not acceptable.

While I am NOT saying that you shouldn't come to the Byzantine Church, I beg you to stand and serve as a witness in your own community, and try to make sure that the Roman Catholic community is goaded into being all the best that it can be.

Keep praying. The Holy Spirit is ultimately in charge. And God will effect what He wills in your life. Be well and at peace.

Michael,

Monk Maximos puts it excellently -- the differences are not cosmetic, but are not fundamental.

I agree with Dr. John, though. The Byzantine Rite is an entire system of theology, devotional practice, and tradition, as well as the wonderful liturgical life. You should of course feel free to worship in a Byzantine Church, if you wish (and it does satisfy your Roman Sunday obligation!), but in my opinion you shouldn't consider a more permanent move unless you have learned more about the differing theological emphases and devotional practices of the Eastern Church.

As a Roman Catholic in the process of changing rites, I can tell you that my principal attraction to Eastern Christianity was not initially liturgical, and that my interest in Eastern Christianity was real and quite well developed years before I ever attended a Divine Liturgy. I would recommend a little reading and learning (I know it's time-consuming!) to see whether the Eastern way of experiencing the Catholic faith meshes with your own spirituality. The worst thing that can happen is that you learn a lot about the Eastern Church!

I'm not a nay-sayer, though -- if you wish to attend a Divine Liturgy, please go ahead! And if you do, it is my hope that you do benefit from it spiritually, and that it helps you find your spiritual home within the Catholic Church (Byzantine or Latin).

All Christians are best catechized by prayer. The only way for one to begin to know and understand the Byzantine Church is for one to join us in prayer for at least one full year (including the Great Fast and Pascha). I invite you to join with any of our Churches to experience this for yourself.

The Byzantine Church invites all those who are "seeking". If you are seeking and the Lord leads you to a Byzantine Church for your spiritual home then follow the Spirit. But if you are simply fleeing something you don't like you may or may not find a home in the Byzantine Church. In this case, Dr. John's counsel to stay put and stand up for good liturgy is excellent.

If you are looking for some reading materials as an introduction, I recommend three excellent books:

1. *The Face of God* by Archbishop Joseph Raya (Byzantine-Melkite Catholic) co-published by Alleluia Press and (I think) Paulist Press.

2. *The Orthodox Church* by Timothy Ware [Bishop Kallistos]. Bishop Kallistos is a bishop of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople and lecturer at Oxford University. His introduction to our Byzantine Church is excellent.

3. *The Way of the Pilgrim* is an excellent introduction to Byzantine Prayer via the famous "Jesus Prayer" and is available for under $10.00 from amazon.com.

[This message has been edited by Moose (edited 11-23-98).]

I think that all the comments have been excellent, and I would especially like to focus on those made by Dr. John. While I strongly agree that the Byzantines should be free of pressure from RC's to change their customs, I also strongly believe that both rites can benefit from each other's devotions. For example, after exploring some Roman devotions and prayers, I have become convinced that the rosary is a very worthwhile prayer. Praying it does not alter one's Byzantine identity and yet it is very edifying spiritually. And God only knows how much the Romans miss out on by not investigating the devotions and prayers characteristic of the Byzantine rite. So, I believe that each rite should be a little more open to the customs of the other so that both can become more enriched spiritually.

God Bless You all!

While it is clear that Christians should be able to benefit from the theological principles and practices of others, I am very afraid that without adequate education and study, the introduction of ritual activities like rosary, novenas, holy water stoups, scapulars, benediction, etc. from other communities dilute the unified spiritual pathway that we have received from our ancestors.

We indeed have the obligation to make our spiritual lives appropriate to our needs, but I truly believe that we have practices in our own theological traditions that will answer these needs--without just importing elements from other traditions. The problem is that too many folks lack the incentive and self-discipline to actually STUDY the theology and history of our church and then find the devotions and practices that are organically appropriate to our composite whole. By introducing devotions from other traditions, there is a violence done to our theology and spirituality. It's like putting a square peg in a round hole. While the square peg (like the rosary) is wonderful in itself, it doesn't fit into the Byzantine peg-board without either ripping a new hole in the board or taking a whittling knife to the square peg. Neither option is fair.

If perhaps we agitated to have ALL of our services celebrated -correctly!!!- and according to their liturgical schedule, and provided God's people with the information needed to understand why we do what we do, then we'd be a lot better off.

Look at what happened to Christmas. It's St. Nicholas --who now lives with reindeer--has a wife, comes down a chimney, cavorts with elves, and flies through the sky. This crap would NEVER have evoled to celebrate the birth of Christ if Christians had been educated to understand the history and reality; they would have tossed all this commercial Hallmark junk out the window--meaning that they would NOT buy the products and force the companies to clean up their acts. But most Christians are more than fuzzy on these ideas, and so the feast of Christ's birth has turned into a travesty of a feast day. Same thing is true of other liturgical practices that dilute the faith of our ancestors. We need to read, study and pray. And don't just import stuff without a very clear understanding of what is happening.

One must be very careful in asking any Church to adopt a custom that is not authentically its own. We Byzantines, for example, retain the Akathist Hymn to the Mother of God as our main extra-liturgical devotion to the Theotokos. It is this from this Akathist Hymn that the more recent Roman Catholic rosary developed. I am sure that the rosary is a most worthwhile devotion and that many Byzantines - both Catholic and Orthodox - have found spiritual benefit from it in their personal devotions. It would be wrong, however, for us as a Church to reject what is spiritually and historically ours in favor of what is not ours. As Byzantines, we must teach our people and those we evangelize to pray all of the Divine Services - Vespers, Matins and the Liturgy. We must teach them to pray the Akathist Hymns, the Molebens, and the Jesus Prayer. So much of our Byzantine prayer has fallen into disuse because the Roman model of prayer was considered better. We should not reject authentic growth in our Church. We must be careful, however, to fully understand and witness our own Byzantine spirituality before even considering adopting that which is not ours.

Greetings to all of you already on the Byzantine Forum,

By way of introduction, I am very new at computers/internet, still at the stage where I make mistakes that cause the screen to go blank or the whole thing to lock up. If I disappear suddenly, it wasn't intentional!

Worse yet, I am relatively new to an exploration of eastern spirituality. In that regard, I am not very sophisticated in your theology. But I am extremely interested!

After locating this site, I wanted veru much to participate. This is my very first time to attempt communication with anyone on the net. For days I have wondered what kind of profound remarks I could make in response to one topic or the other. Now I have abandoned that project (!!!) because I can't help but jump in in defense of the person who asked questions about Byzantine liturgy (Michael Hanafin).

It distressed me a little that "Dr. John" answered him in a way that sounded discouraging. One remark was, "a person should be seeking something in terms of theology, rather than fleeing from some
unacceptable situation." My thought is that when something becomes unacceptable to us it may mean that we no longer believe in it or in the underlying theory which allows it to flourish. In not believing one way, our questioning glance scans the horizon hoping for something truer, which may appear initially in the form of aesthetic appeal. Once we respond to that first attraction, we may then begin to seriously explore more deeply. Can't it be this way?

Perhaps a way for some to express the beginning of metanoia is to say, "I don't like where I was before; I'm thinking of moving forward." In any case, I'm a little uncomfortable with telling Michael Halafin or anyone else to stay in his own church. As far as whether a newcomer will bring the wrong baggage along, why not give them the benefit of the doubt?

I've said nothing profound, but now my secret is out - I always champion the underdog! (In my church I'm famous for saying, "But we don't actually KNOW that Judas went to hell!")

Thank you for letting me participate! It's pretty exciting!

Welcome, Judith, to the Byzantine Forum!

Your comments are well thought out. I think a quick summary of the position of the Byzantines who have posted in this thread is needed.

1. All who wish to join us in worshiping the Father, Son and Holy Spirit according to our Byzantine Orthodox Tradition are welcome.

2. Those who are fleeing other Traditions are welcome provided they are happy to join us in living the theological and liturgical life of the Byzantine Church. Too often Roman Catholics who flee that Church join the Byzantine Church for the wrong reasons. Some of these people are quite content to join us in Byzantine worship (Vespers, Matins and the Divine Liturgy). Others seek to create within the Byzantine Church their own version of Roman Catholicism (either the pre or post Vatican II brand) by asking us to add rosaries, Eucharistic Adoration, Divine Mercy services, and etc. It is the latter group that we encourage to remain in the Roman Catholic Church and work within their local parish for good Roman liturgy. The Roman Church has had its own troubles in the reformations of Vatican II. For awhile, good Roman liturgy seemed difficult to find but I know many Roman parishes that now have excellent liturgy.

Thank you for your welcome, Moose!
I appreciate and agree with all you said. I can understand how some Catholics would behave. But I must insist that not all Latins are the same, and it still seems a wee bit prejudicial to assume that Michael Hanafin would be troublesome. I don't read anything ominous in his question.

Back to the issue of converts trying to impose devotional practices on the Byzantine church. . .this is a problem within the Latin rite itself, except it originates internally. Overwhelmingly large numbers of western Catholics did not understand or accept Vatican II, and have seized upon former rituals as a symbol of "the old church". They seek to impose these practises on their fellow parishioners either directly or via the pastoral staff.

Many of the practices, perhaps meaningful at one time, have become distorted and enmeshed with superstition and idolatry, in the sense that the practices themselves become the focus of worship. The counting and mumbling and bargains and formulae become an end in themselves, drowning out the small still voice within; the knots of parishioners who follow various of these practices (which include "spiritual" chain letters, letters in newspapers to St. Jude, and other horrors) form little societies within the church (often called apostolates) and show hostility toward those who choose not to participate. They do not contribute to liturgy except to object to others' input or to promote their own favored devotions.

At the same time, the "contemporary" side is
at loose ends, not having a precedant and not really knowing who's on first. The clergy is particularly baffled. Dr. John mentioned "K-Mart liturgies" which made me roar, because it's so true! Yet no one wants it to be that way, and some find it heartbreakingly
repulsive. (I recall a liturgy orchestrated by the grade schoolers; two large banners with yellow smiley faces adorned the sanctuary).

I was baptised as a Latin rite Catholic in infancy and have remained one for 56 years, but after leaving parochial school I have not owned a rosary. I don't wear a scapular, do not attend novenas, do not believe in the indulgence program or apparitions or burning up in purgatory. I have never even heard of a Divine Mercy service. My spirituality is contemplative and my daily prayer includes the Liturgy of the Hours and the Jesus Prayer. I can't tell whether my church is evolving or dissolving. I can't imagine what to do about it either way.

My point is, all Latin Catholics aren't the same. Be nice to us. We already have enough problems!

Judith, thanks for your post. I am reminded of St. Paul's dictum about working out one's salvation in fear and trembling. Each soul must find its own way to God and use whatever means help that process. Your spiritual orientation sounds very much like that of the Byzantine or Syrian churches. And this is good; but it is also true of many people who are in the Latin community. If you were attempting to 'force' your theological approach on others in the Western community, that would be decidedly wrong, but using the approach for yourself seems to be exactly what the Holy Spirit is guiding you to do. And that is great. While finding grace and spiritual solace in the liturgical practices of another community, it might be that the Holy Spirit is guiding you elsewhere, but that is something that will decided over time.

By the way, did you know that Ethiopian Christians have churches dedicated to St. Judas, the Iscariot? Yup! Their theology leads them to believe that someone who was as close to Christ as he was could not have died unrepentant. So, you've got a few million Ethiopian Christians in your corner regarding Judas. Hope that this brightens your day!

Thanks for the kind words and thoughtful advice, Dr. John! And three cheers for the Ethiopians!

Though it's off the subject, before bowing out of this phase of discussion (I've posted a question on East 'n West!), I'd like to announce that this coming Sunday I will be in attendance at an OCA Liturgy, ta-daaaah! A few months ago I painted my first icon, and deliberated for awhile on whether to have it blessed by an eastern or western priest. The answer seemed obvious, but then I had to decide between Byzantine or Orthodox. With
minimal experience either way, I ended up choosing Orthodox because I had painted the icon in an Orthodox icon studio.
Upon contacting an Orthodox priest in a town
where there is an Orthodox church, I was invited to come to the Liturgy as well, and so on the 4th Sunday in Advent that is where both my husband and I will be. He's a little green around the gills (comes from a non-liturgical background), but I'm just worried that I will holler out, ". . .and the Son," by automatic reflex!
Maybe I'll report on this experience afterward, especially for all the Michael Hanafins out there. Meanwhile, pray for us this Sunday at 9:30! (Just kidding - the OCA folks seem very warm and friendly!)

Judith,

Please tell us your impressions of your visit. What part of the country are you in? Do you know if the Liturgy will be in English or also in Slavonic? Ours here in Southern Oregon is entirely in English.

In Christ,

Dave Ignatius

Well, Dave, we did it. This morning my husband and I set out for the OCA church about 40 miles from our hometown, which is in the midwest. The liturgy was sung in English and the congregation numbered about 50 or 60.

The priest instructed me to have someone bring my icon to him when we arrived, saying he would bless it and return it to me after the liturgy. I did this, and we were then shown to a seat by a friendly woman.

When the liturgy began, I was extremely thrilled to see my icon at the right of the altar!

There was no iconostasis, which surprised me. This parish is about to commence building a new church, so maybe they are waiting til then to get one. I didn't want to embarrass anyone by asking where their iconostasis was, so I still don't know.

At first I approached the liturgy in a typical western way, by going through the booklet, sorting out the parts, assessing how long each would take, and how long the whole event would last. Then a few minutes into the liturgy, I found myself sinking into timelessness and a quiet peace. The sensuality of candles reflecting on gold, of the incense, the bells, and the gentle sibilant chant, created a wonder I have not felt since the Latin Mass of my childhood.

Beyond those delights, I could sense a strong and deep commitment among the people, to their faith and to each other as well.

I'm pleased to report that I did NOT recite the filioque on automatic pilot. We did not go up to Communion, either, but several people brought cubes of bread to us from a bowl on a table. They didn't even know us!
It was touching, because in our home parish where everyone knows each other, people are pretty frosty. I couldn't imagine any of them bringing bread to strangers in their midst. Maybe that is the difference between a small parish and a huge one. (We have 800 families.)

At the end, children from the church school performed a Christmas play. None of the children were more than 7 or 8 yrs. old. A little girl played her violin while others took turns narrating the gospel. Meanwhile, tiny solemn figures proceeded down the aisle wearing costumes representing the main characters of the Nativity. Jesus was played by a round-eyed 4-month-old boy! When all the shepherds and angels and magi were at the altar, we sang carols. There wasn't a dry eye in the house, least of all mine.

Afterward the priest made announcements and introduced my husband and me. He held up the icon I painted, which he had blessed, and amazingly people all over the church gave loud cries of admiration.

We were urged to join them for coffee and snacks, which we did. It was just as if we had all known one another forever, which in a way is true - we share a Father, and a Mother.

I felt absolutely no separation between who I am spiritually and who the Orthodox were. I cannot imagine how separation can exist. What if it's only in people's minds, and DOESN'T really exist! Then we are wasting time arguing about something unreal.

And so that is the story of our first Orthodox liturgy.