www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Question? - Part I

How absolutely wonderful, your narration of you first visit to the Church.
It seems that you will have a wonderful Christmas this year from the overflowing graces that you and your husband have received.
Mission parishes usually are wonderful since people in small groups have a tendency to be a lot friendlier than huge stadium-full congregations.
I ask your prayers for myself and for the others here; and (in speaking for all of us) we are all so very happy that you have found 'the pearl of great price' in your visit to this particular congregation and in an experience of the transcendent that is the hallmark of the Byzantine Christian approach to prayer and spirituality.
Have a great Christmas and a great Christmas season.

Judith,

Thanks so much for sharing your wonderful experience with us.

You're right -- I would say that the separation is "surreal" rather than real. I guess this is part of the reason why the Catholic Church (even the Latin one) allows Orthodox to receive communion with us and says that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are in such profound communion that little is lacking that would allow a common celebration of the Eucharist (the new Catechism says that).

Sincerely in Christ,

Brendan

My dear friends, thank you so much for your very kind remarks and prayers and good wishes. I certainly hope that you too have a peace-filled Christmas season! Let's all pray
for unity at this blessed time of year.

And now, going from the sublime to the ridiculous, can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong on the computer that's causing each of my posts to go into instant re-runs? Help!

Judith,

It appears that you are posting your messages a number of times. The first one is timed at 8:18 and 8:20; the second at 7:05, 7:09 and 7:10. Maybe you hit the "Submit Reply" button more than once? Or used the "Back" and "Forward" buttons on your browser to go past the page in which you wrote the messages? A good rule is never to go "Back" after you post a message. If your internet connection is slow sometimes it might also hang up reloading the page and you'll wind up reposting the message if you hit the "reload" button just after "Submit Reply". You're best bet is to always freshly load the page from your bookmark or enter the URL by hand.

Please acknowledge this message. Afterwards, I'll delete the duplicates along with this message.

I'm glad that you and your husband enjoyed your visit to one of our parishes - even if it's one in the OCA jurisdiction. I pray that wherever the Lord leads you that His presence always be known to you. Best wishes for a joyful Christmas / Epiphany season.

Christ is Born!
Glorify Him!

As a first time visitor to this site, I was very discouraged at the remarks made by moderators to questions asked about the differences between the Latin and Byzantine Rites. Remarks refering to the dislike of Rosary, Fatima, Indulgences, Purgatory, Benediction and Scapulars. I guess you belong to a different Byzantine Rite than I do. I have been a Byzantine Catholic for over 50 years and as far back as I can remember these items you refer to as Western have been a part of our Church. My parents, my grandparents chanted the rosary every Sunday prior to the Liturgy. Historians trace the orgin of the Roasay back to the so-called Dark Ages of the ninth century Ireland. The 150 Psalms of David were one of the most important forms of Monastic prayer. Monks recited or chanted the Psalms day after day. About the year 800 A.D., the Irish Monks suggested to the lay people to pray the Our Father in place of the 150 Psalms.The Rosary continued to change until the year 1214 when Our lady, the Blessed Mother appeared to St. Dominic and told him that the world can be reformed thru the power of the Rosary. She told him how to recite it. In all the approved appriations of the Blessed Mother, she continues to ask the world to pray the Rosary. I have never found in my readings where she stated Latin Rite Catholics only.
If you as a Catholic and do not believe in Purgatory, then what you are teaching in this site is heresy. Purgatory is a dogma of the Catholic Church and you can begin to learn about it in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, beginning with paragraph 1032.
If Adoration and Benediction are not part of the Byzantine Rite, someone should tell Most Reverend Judson Procyk, Archbishop of the Byzantine Rite. I have been present as Archbishop Judson presided over public Adoration and Benediction. As far as the Scapular, read it's history. As for me, I trust Our Lady, I would never leave home without it.
There is much dissension in the Catholic Church in the US, read church history and read about the Saints of the church, and remember, you are Catholic first, Eastern second.

Bookeeper wrote: >>>>Purgatory is a dogma of the Catholic Church and you can begin to learn about it in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, beginning with paragraph 1032.<<<<
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Dear Bookeeper,

Purgatory is not a dogma of the Catholic Church. And no where in the Catechism will you read that it is including the paragraph you quoted. A dogma is a "revealed truth from God." Don't confuse the word dogma with doctrine. This teaching was first formulated at the Councils of Florence and Trent. Trent by the way gave the Latin Church the separation of the Sacramental Mysteries of Initiation. Which is forbidden by our Code of Canons for the Eastern Churches. And by the way, I'm an Eastern Catholic first, in union with Rome second.

Joe Prokopchak
archsinner

This most recent exchange brings into focus, I think, the need for a thorough Byzantine catechism of some sort. The CCC is intended to be a baseline catechism, upon which "local catechisms" are to be prepared. It would seem to me that, given the confusion/disagreement that exists regarding who must believe what doctrines/dogmas, a thorough Byzantine catechism would be a good idea. Any thoughts?

Yes!!! We need a Byzantine Catechism. The CCC is for all practical purposes the Catechism of the Latin Church in North America with very few citations to the Eastern Rites. As Byzantine Catholic working with the RCIA process in a Latin Church it is very difficult to find good information on the Eastern Rites. If we do not have a handle on what we do and why that is easily understood by lay people of the Eastern Church how can we expect others to understand us.

Also most cradle Catholics have a very limited knowledge of their faith. We were raised to "Pray, Pay and Obey". The point was made by very well by Bookkeeper confusing the word dogma with doctrine. Bookkeeper is not alone may guess is at least 99 out of 100 Catholics would not be able to explain the difference.

God Bless

The problem for our Church today is the issue of renewal in the light of our Orthodox heritage. My wife is very pleased with out Church and does not want it to change. She likes kneeling and sitting and is very uncomfortable standing even during Easter time. We occasionally visit a more 'Eastern' oriented Church and she is uncomfortable with kissing the Gospel Book after the Gospel etc.

I, on the other hand, say the Jesus prayer and have never been comfortable with the Rosary even though both my parents were very devout in their resitation and my Father was the diocesian director of the Rosary Society.

Their's the rub. What do we do with the scapulars, rosaries, Stations of the Cross? Where is the Sacred Heart in our Sacred Heart parish in suburban Detroit? Nowhere to be found. This is an issue I've not seen addressed by our Exarchs in any public forum. I am not enough of a modernist to think this needs to be discussed in screaming headlines in the media, but it is the bottom line for us practicing Byzantines.

Will my wife and children such as are near a Byzantine parish and want to go there be ready for the complete Orthodox tradition?

On the other hand, my wife and I regularly visit our very traditional monastery in Newberry Springs and she is comfortable there. My daughter recently visited and was much less intimidated with the practices than I was the first time I went----but is that the way for our Church to go? Is that our role in the big picture? Will we be comfortable with Great Vespers on Saturday in lieu of the Sunday Liturgy?

Joe Prokopchak:

While it is true that the CCC does not state that its teaching on purgatory is dogma at paragraph 1032 nevertheless it is a dogma of the Catholic Church. The Councils of Trent and Florence defined this dogma. But even if they had not defined it, it would still be the consistent teaching of the church of Rome back to ancient times.

Perpetua wrote:

>>>>While it is true that the CCC does not state that its teaching on purgatory is dogma at paragraph 1032 nevertheless it is a dogma of the Catholic Church. The Councils of Trent and Florence defined this dogma. But even if they had not defined it, it would still be the consistent teaching of the church of Rome back to ancient times.<<<<
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I disagree. Purgatory is not a dogma. You are confusing the word dogma with doctrine. An example of dogma would be the Trinity, Incarnation, Nativity, Assumption, Resurrection, etc. A doctrine is a *changeable* teaching of the Catholic Church. Doctines are the present best explanation for a mystery of the Church. It may not necessarily be the correct one but it is the best explanation the Church has so far. In the early Church it was a doctrine that you could not charge interest on money borrowed. This doctrine was later changed because the Church finally realized later that this was not correct. An example of a present doctrine is Transubstantiation. It is dogma that the Eucharist *is* the precious Body and Blood of Our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ. How this change takes place is doctrine. The best explanation for this mystery so far is Transubstantiation. But maybe a couple of hundred years from now the Church might have a better understanding how this change takes place and the present doctrine will be changed.

Joe Prokopchak
archsinner

Dear Joe Prokopchak:

The Decree on Purgatory of the Council of Trent states:

"The Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Spirit and in accordance with sacred Scripture and the ancient Tradition of the Fathers, has taught in the holy Councils and most recently in this ecumenical Council that there is a purgatory and that the souls detained there are helped by the acts of intercession of the faithful and especially by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar. Therefore this holy Council commands the bishops to strive diligently that the sound doctrine of purgatory, handed down by the Holy Fathers and the sacred Councils, be believed by the faithful and that it be adhered to, taught, and preached everywhere."

The Decree on Justification from the Council of Trent states:

"If anyone says that after the grace of justification has been received the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out for any repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be paid, either in this world or in the other, in purgatory , before access can be opened to the kingdom of heaven, anathema sit."

This is not an optional doctrine but one to "be believed by the faithful and [to] be adhered to, taught, and preached everywhere." It is a doctrine received by the Catholic Church from the "Holy Spirit and in accordance with sacred Scripture and the ancient Tradition of the Fathers, [and] taught in the holy Councils."

This dogmatic statement by an Ecumencial Council seems to state this dogma rather dogmatically.

Perpetua wrote: >>>>This dogmatic statement by an Ecumencial Council seems to state this dogma rather dogmatically.<<<<
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Dear Perpetua,

You are rather dogmatically claiming that this is a dogmatic statement. The Council Fathers did not make this claim. You are. If you reread your post you will find that the word dogma is never used. They claim it to be a doctrine. There is a big difference between a dogma and a doctrine. That's the point I've been trying to no avail make.

Joe Prokopchak
archsinner

Just a follow up, here is a decree from the twenty first session of the Council of Trent.

---Can. 4. If anyone says that communion of the Eucharist is necessary
for little children before they have attained the years of
discretion,[17] let him be anathema.---

Joe Prokopchak
archsinner

Please excuse me for interrupting here; I had asked for some technical advice earlier and "Admin5" was kind enough to offer some, and also asked me for a response. I attempted to respond to his/her e-mail site, but received the message that my transmission was "Undeliverable", so I have no alternative but to reply here. Admin5 - thank you VERY much for your kind assistance; I have indeed been using the Back box to return, and this may be the culprit in my redundant postings. I'll try the bookmark method today and see if that solves the problem. Thank you again!

I intended to bow out of the forum for awhile, because I'm sure everyone is growing weary of my comments. But I can't help but add a thought to the discussion on purgatory.
I wonder if anyone on the forum is familiar with the theology of Jesuit Fr. Karl Rahner on this subject. A simplified version of his concept of purification is that after a person dies, he receives the grace of seeing his entire life in perfect truth, and the pain suffered at this encounter of wrongdoing and shortcoming acts as a purgation of the soul. While modern theology is somewhat speculative, somehow it is easy to identify with this particular theory, perhaps because as we all know from experience, our sorrow as we review our failings in retrospect is exquisitely painful, and does indeed render a determination not to repeat known faults in the future, with God's help. It's pleasant to hope that heaven will include some way that we can make amends for any pain we have caused others through our thoughtlessness.

So saying, I now go into a silence for awhile. And I hope you see only one copy of my remarks!