www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Case Study #1

Dear Edwin,

O.K., O.K., you've talked me into it . . .

1) Following the precedents set by the reception and ordination of Anglican and Lutheran ministers as married Catholic priests, the request for ordination is granted. (Hopefully, this will help with the movement for married priests in the Ruthenian Church as well).

2) Follwing the precedent set by the Ukrainian Catholic parish of Sts. Volodymyr and Olha in Chicago, the request for truste-Ownership of their properties is also granted (with the proviso that they keep this to themselves).

3) A committee is to be struck to discuss the changes they would like to the Rite. Since they seem to want the earlier, three-sided iconostasis, hopefully all this will help speed up the full return to Eastern traditions among the Ruthenians and Ukrainians, since Vatican II and "Orientale Lumen" didn't seem to be enough of an invitation (sigh).

4) They can make their robes as they like, perhaps turning to some Oriental Orthodox models that combine both colour and flowing tastefulness.

5) Assurance granted under the auspices of local authority that their parishes would possess, much like a Particular Church, only smaller.

6) A reminder that deaconnesses are not "ordained" in the sacerdotal meaning of the word. They can be consecrated and a ministry for them can be established. The aforementioned committee could possibly examine this issue to see if it would be opportune to introduce them in the rest of our Church in Pittsburgh.

7) A reminder that "Readers" are not ordained, but blessed. Anyone can act as Reader and this confers no special rank in terms of the Sacrament of Holy Orders. The former ministers are free to be cantors, readers, what have you, after suitable training in the worship services of the Church. Otherwise, they should seek seminary training in preparation for the Priesthood.

8)Their petition to call themselves "Byzantine Evangelical Catholic Church" is granted with the proviso that a one-page letter explaining the meaning of this term to both Catholic and Protestant audiences is circulated and, for the time being, posted on the bulletin boards of their parishes.

9) A reminder that the Catholic Church knows no "foreign" languages. The BECC is free to use English. It is also free to missionize with other communities and, when converts warrant, to have mission churches use languages they are comfortable with.

10) Their academy may so be converted and the placement of Eastern Catholic theologians and professors in various departments could help in fusing the Evangelical impulse with solid Catholic teaching within a Byzantine theological focus.

With respect to the problems raised at the subsequent meeting:

1) Mandatory celibacy in our Rite is only for Byzantine Catholic priests. BECC Minister-converts who lived in "invincible ignorance" can become married Catholic priests to help convince others to join the Church (I say this only half in jest).

2) These may do so with our Apostolic blessing!

3) The presbyters MIGHT have their way with Old Slavonic as long as they can, one day, show better proficiency in English.

4) Of course, the Carpatho-Ruthenian architecture is the best, and perhaps the new converts, by being in closer proximity to us, may one day see the error of their ways. But this is nothing to keep them from joining the Church.

5) Everyone knows that more private profits lead to greater tax revenue. Trustee-ownership can go ahead with everyone's blessing.

6) Since, as the Acts of the Apostles notes, it is not fitting for the Apostles, or their successors, the bishops, to wait on tables, somebody has to do it. Why not the Deaconesses? The Church of Greece already has schools that train Deaconesses and they are frequently mentioned in The Rudder. There is also no reason why extra-liturgical roles cannot be found for them. A band-aid stop-gap measure for the issue of greater participation of women in the Church, I say. (I'll throw my staff at anyone who says, "women priests") Official recognition granted . . .

7) Another committee is to be struck up to deal with clergy who don't like Bible Christians. They are to be informed that the Church accepts no one who hasn't been properly prepared and catechized beforehand. Also, these priests are to be given a 150 question Bible quiz to try and discover the real reason for their opposition . . .

8) Permission to send them rosaries is granted with the proviso that they resemble the rosary used by John Wesley during his lifetime along with the book by the Methodist Minister Neville Ward, "Five for Sorrow, Ten for Joy."

9) Another committee to be struck on the subject of linking Evangelical fervour with Byzantine Catholic liturgy for a Centre which could also serve as a retreat house for lapsed Byzantine Catholics and those who would really like to find out what the Bible is all about.

10) They will become Byzantine Catholics and all participants at the meeting are to promise not to tell Rome about it.

On second thought, why don't we all become the BECC to better protect our ancient Byzantine heritage?

My apologies for my earlier SNAFU, Edwin. I am an idiot.

+ Alex

Alex wrote: "My apologies for my earlier SNAFU, Edwin. I am an idiot."


Alex,

Please don't call our MetroArchy an idiot. Such references are permissable only behind his back and not on a public forum.

I enjoyed your response. I can always count on you to make good decisions when you put your heart into it. BTW, you failed to submit a photo.

Edwin

Dear Edwin,

I promote you to Auxiliary Bishop in the very least!

Alex

Alex,

NOT! I'd rather be an idiot.

Edwin

Dear Edwin,

O.K., O.K.,

How about we both become "Fools for Christ?"

Alex

booklets arguing the case for keeping the Filioque in the liturgy if they do decide to join

Metropolitan Sergius would forbid that. Anyway, I thought that was a dead horse in the real-life, present-day Ruthenian Church.

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear Serge,

Oh, that was just propaganda!

Alex

I have a few minutes. Please remember, I've only been a BC for a year. My ideas aren't set in stone. I'm still learning, yet, here are my thoughts at this point.

1. The request for "ordination' and permission to remain married.

Granted with apologies for past delays.

2. To keep trustee-ownership of their properties.

I'll take this under advisement. I'm still too keenly aware of lay abuses of ministers in Protestant Churches. I know that ordination is supposed to mean something. But, in the situations I've seen, money talks alot louder than ordination.

3. They will adopt the Byzantine Tradition but with some "changes' to match their tastes – such as a new livelier chant based on the Prostopinije and church interiors that resemble earlier Constantinopolitan-style altars with three-sided iconostasis/chancel wall that is open.

No opinion. I guess I'm not ready to be metropolitan yet.

4. That they keep their ultra-colorful liturgical robes but with agreed alterations to look somewhat similar to the traditional Byzantine vestments.

Agreed.

5. Assurance that the bishops their communities are under don't move their clergy at will for the original "class' of convert-ministers.

A missionary conference sounds like just the ticket to accommodate these folks. I would want to shepherd them into the Byzantine flow of things and eventually change the missionary status. At that point moves would be made on pastoral need as determined by the bishops. Perhaps, I would think in terms of a stead progression toward incorporation.

6. Ordination of deaconesses.

Consecration, by all means. Ordination, no.

7. Immediate ordination of all their ministers to the order of reader since they wanted that connection between the Bible and any sort of hierarchical similarity with Johnny C.

Same as 6.

8. That they rename their "church' as the Byzantine Evangelical Catholic Church.

Only as a Temporary move if the new group were a mission. Then again...perhaps that name be better than the one we have.

9. That foreign languages and "ethnic' programs NOT be enacted.

Granted. It's good BC tradition.

10. The conversion of their Bible and Ministry Academy into a "seminary' and institute for theological studies.

Combine the two.

The problems they raised were:

1. Some of the priests wanted to keep mandatory celibacy.

Ask for their resignations.

2. Other clergy wanted to leave their dying parishes immediately to assist them in their mission; there is talk of another string of bible communities (the Riverside Bible Thumping and Pounding Gospel Shouters) looking into what the F&B Church was doing and were interested too.

They made their beds, let them lie in them. Seriously, let the new people train the more established priests in how to make a lively parish.

3. A few presbyters demanded that they learn Old Slavonic.

Denied.

4. A few traditionalists didn't want them to adopt an older form of church style; they wanted them to build "Carpatho-Ruthenian' style church buildings.

No opinion.

5. The issue of trustee-ownership bug most of the participants but the fact that the F&B Church actually tithes all members a full 10% (read: a big annual cathedral tax) interests a few. The F&B Church takes contributions per capita amounting to five times the amount the average ByzCath parishioner gives.

Again, I'm a bit nervous about this. Are the Orthodox really doing alright with their "Trustee" parishes. Do the priests truly have authority even though the laity have the purse? If so, it may be worth doing it.

6. Deaconesses were a hot topic. Jerry assures that the order is not for worship but a New Testament style of waiting on tables or charity; the F&B Church runs ten soup kitchens, eight day-care centers; conducts meetings for AA and manages a home for battered women; their deaconesses were a real New Testament ministry that they wanted to receive official recognition by the ByzChurch.

With these guidelines intact, I will allow their consecration.

7. A minority of the participating clergy do not like the idea at all; they don't want to have anything to do with “Bible Christians” because they are heretics; they also threaten to leave if the Archbishop accepts them.

I will show them the door.

8. Three presbyters ask if they could send them rosaries.

Why?

9. Several members suggest revamping Sts. Cyril & Methodius Seminary to become an Evangelical Missionary Center.

Sounds refreshing.

10. The question of whether they should become Latin Catholics came up; Didn't Rome have claims on all Westerners?

This is a bunch of nonsense. I know that the question is often asked but it carries no water with this Metropolitan.

Dan Lauffer

Thank you for all the wonderful responses so far.