www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Theotokos Icons ?

Whether she is required to be represented only with Christ [visible!] seems to be debatable. That many think she is or should be does make sense: precisely because the Mother of our God is more honorable than the cherubim and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim a mere man may be tempted to worship her, where he would not be so tempted to worship other saints.

Does this argument make sense?

I don't think so. It presupposes an ongoing tendency toward worship of Mary. While this accusation is made by some Protestant apologists agaisnt Catholics and Orthodox, is there any real merit in it? Who does not understand that Mary is of significance because of her Son? Who would think, convesely that Jesus is of significance because Mary is his Mother? I don't accept this tendency as real, it is much polemical ado about nothing. Moreover, I see concern over this imagined problem as a symptom of a real and deep problem: I suspect that those who have find enthusiastic veneration of Mary difficult, really haven't considered, or harbor doubts about, the Mystery of Incarnation. That Mary, unlike all other saints, is most customarily in intimate contact with her Son is a clear testimony to her unique greatness - a greatness that one could hardly resist championing, upon contemplating this great and marvelous Mystery.

Whether this may have been a more serious problem historically is another matter. Are there historical writings on this issue?

Isn't it the case though, that a saint is depicted with something that relates to their significance in life or their means of martyrdom?

Preachers and theologians are depicted with scrolls indicating their writings or ideas, martyrs may be shown with the instruments of death. Bearing and raising Jesus the Christ from childhood is simply what the Theotokos did, it seems reasonable to depict her in that way. The icon of the protection follows along that same line of reasoning because she was attributed to have spread a veil of protection over Constantinople, thus she is depicted with the veil of protection.

Even in Byzantiums most sophisticated period most subjects were illiterate. The saints most fundamental charecteristic would be portrayed for clarity. Her relationship to Jesus Christ our Lord is her first calling, having nurtured and supported him in his human nature, her sponsoring of our petitions and intervention on our behalf follows from that.

Michael

Well, veneration of Mary did arise in a milieu fresh from goddess worship; perhaps the holy fathers were concerned that the simple would merely transfer their worship? And while exaggerated by Protestants, there can be an overemphasis on Marian piety outside of a gospel context. Or have you never encountered this?

I certainly have!

As I already mentioned, this historical aspect is interesting. Your suggestion may be right (and presumably those extensively familar with the writings of the Fathers could comment). On the other hand, does much iconography survive from the days of fresh-from-goddess-worship converts in the empire - before the iconoclast era? Did the customs (canons?) of iconography evolve after the end of iconoclasm and thus at a time when goddess worship was not so fresh? Did these customs only evolve with the mission to the Slavs, whose pagan practices presumably included godess worship? There may be an link ... somewhere. But it would require a lot of work to flesh it out.

Of course I have encountered emphases outside the Gospel. Much of the Marian celebrations in the church derives from traditions that lie outside the Gospel narratives. This would bother the Sola Scriptura set, I guess. As to overemphasis, you are right, I have not encountered it. As I said before, I know of no one who venerates Mary outside the of the context of her role in the incarnation of our Savior, and as the emeplar of faithful devotion to her Son. Within this perspective, I am uncertain as to what could be called overemphasis.

I see far more of a problem with underemphasis. It bespeaks, IMO, serious deficiencies in faith.

The tradition of writing an icon of the Theotokos holding the Christ Child came from St. Luke himself who wrote three icons that I am aware of through my studies. One was the famous St. Vladimir Icon, another was the Directress. Is the third one called Our Lady of the Passion (Perpetual Help)?

Hope this helps.

Elizabeth Maria