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Dear Stephen, Christ is Risen! Originally posted by Stephen R.:
Photius, I don't think I have ever heard the Anaphora taken aloud in a ROCOR church or a Greek monastery either.
Or in any other traditional Orthodox Church, either! ... ROCOR may even have a directive of some sort forbidding such a practice; I don't know that they do, but it wouldn't surprise me.
No; there's no need to. The Litugicon expressly states that the Anaphora is said "secretly", except for the few lines that are directed to be said "out loud". A directive to follow the written rubrics, to do things the only way anyone has seen them done, is issued by a Church only when someone disregards the rubric or custom. No one in ROCOR seems to have ever done this, as has no one in most other Orthodox Churches.
However, it does happen in other jurisdictions, so it is not "statistically negligible" in terms of the question originally asked (which was not limited to ROCOR + monasteries).
Stephen
I am not the one who said it is "statistically negligible". However, in terms of worldwide Orthodoxy, I have to agree that the number of priests doing this is, in fact, negligible. <y examples included not only "ROCOR + monasteries", but many other jurisdictions, mostly outside of North America. The best I can ascertain, no one does this outside of North America. Photius
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The Patriarch of Constantinople has forbidden the taking of the anaphora out loud. Shouldn't the Patriarch of Constantinople, have something to say about the "contantinopolitan" liturgy?
But then, the Archbishop of Pittsburgh doesn't have to listen to any of these other voices, and can act entirely on his own.
Nick
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Originally posted by Photius:
The Litugicon expressly states that the Anaphora is said "secretly", except for the few lines that are directed to be said "out loud".
I don't have a Greek Liturgicon, but I checked out the Russian Sluzhebnik; I don't see a rubric saying "secretly" or "silently." For example, http://liturgy.ru/grafics/cinlit/ioann/page.php?p=133&cd=&k= only says "The priest prays." Compare with the prayer before the Great Entrance, http://liturgy.ru/grafics/cinlit/ioann/page.php?p=119&cd=&k= where it specifically says "The priest says 'mystically' (silently) this prayer." I am not disputing that the general practice is to say the Anaphora quietly; I also know that all rubrics are not given in the Liturgicon. However, I just don't see the silent/secret/mystical recitation of the Anaphora specified in the Liturgicon.  Interestingly, the 1999 English Liturgicon from Jordanville DOES include the word "secretly." Dave
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Originally posted by Chtec: I don't have a Greek Liturgicon, but I checked out the Russian Sluzhebnik; I don't see a rubric saying "secretly" or "silently."
...
I am not disputing that the general practice is to say the Anaphora quietly; I also know that all rubrics are not given in the Liturgicon. However, I just don't see the silent/secret/mystical recitation of the Anaphora specified in the Liturgicon.
Interestingly, the 1999 English Liturgicon from Jordanville DOES include the word "secretly."
Dave Dave, Christ is Risen! I have a Greek Liturgicon and a Slavonic Sluzhebnik printed before the Revolution, and both include the word "secretly" in the rubrics for the Anaphora, and I imagine the Jordanville version does too, since their English version is meticulously identical in editing to their Slavonic version. And, the Sluzhebnik you posted a link to does give the rubric "bosglashenije" before the parts said out loud, implying that the rest of the Anaphora is said silently. Photius
where it specifically says "The priest says 'mystically' (silently) this prayer."
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Originally posted by Photius:
And, the Sluzhebnik you posted a link to does give the rubric "bosglashenije" before the parts said out loud, implying that the rest of the Anaphora is said silently.
something and expressly stating something are two different things, that's all I'm saying.  Do you know if the word "secretly" was left out of the later Moscow Patriarchate editions (like the one I linked)? Anyone? Dave
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Originally posted by Chtec: Implying something and expressly stating something are two different things, that's all I'm saying.
True, but expressly stating is, assuming my small sample be representative, the rule.
Do you know if the word "secretly" was left out of the later Moscow Patriarchate editions (like the one I linked)? Anyone?
Dave
No, but I'll be in Russia next month, and will ask. I noticed that the on-line versions you linked to commenorate Patriarch Pimen. Photius
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Dear Photios,
I don't know anything about the subject matter and please excuse me for butting in, but I think you should have accepted Father Anthony at his word. Now you could have stated your own personal experiences with the Patriarch and Mt. Athos, and that you have never been to a church that said the Anaphora aloud...but again accepting what he is saying as being a truth within his 'own' environs and experiences within the Orthodox Church. By not doing so, you basically did call him a liar.
I'm saying this because I sense you have a certain frustration with the Orthodox on this forum. You must remember that this forum is to establish love and understanding between different Christian communities. If you feel that the Orthodox are not presenting their practices as you would like them too, then I don't think you should perceive it as a limitation in them. By doing so it becomes denigrating... Better I think to perceive it as a weakness within oneself that needs to be overcome.
If I'm offending you with this post, then I beg your forgiveness.
Xristos Anesti
Zenovia
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Originally posted by Zenovia:
... you should have accepted Father Anthony at his word. And I did, although I did not post anything one way or another, because I was not replying to Father Anthony's post.
Now you could have stated your own personal experiences with the Patriarch and Mt. Athos, and that you have never been to a church that said the Anaphora aloud...
That is exactly what I posted!
... but again accepting what he is saying as being a truth within his 'own' environs and experiences within the Orthodox Church. By not doing so, you basically did call him a liar.
What?! I never replied to his post; how could I have called him a liar, even implicitly? All I did was respond to the original question: [b]What is the practice in Orthodox parishes you are familiar with regarding taking the Anaphora out loud?
Does it vary from parish to parish or Diocese to Diocese?[/b] This I did, qualifying it as "Personally, I have never heard the Anaphora out loud."
... You must remember that this forum is to establish love and understanding between different Christian communities.
Do you really think that that means that I can not state that I have never heard the Anaphora out loud just because a priest previously posted that he says some of it out loud? I do not understand your point.
If you feel that the Orthodox are not presenting their practices as you would like them too,
I do not feel that ... they are stating their practices acurately. But I do have a problem with others not allowing me to state the practices of churches I attend! then I don't think you should perceive it as a limitation in them. By doing so it becomes denigrating... Better I think to perceive it as a weakness within oneself that needs to be overcome. How, pray tell, did I denigrate anyone? I simply answered the question about my experience with not having ever heard the Anaphora out loud. If I'm offending you with this post, then I beg your forgiveness. God forgives! Likewise, please forgive me if I'm offending you. Alithos Anesti! Photios
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Zenovia,
Photios and Father Anthony have already put this misunderstanding to rest. Can we please let it go at that.
Many years,
Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Originally posted by Chtec: Originally posted by Photius:
[b] And, the Sluzhebnik you posted a link to does give the rubric "bosglashenije" before the parts said out loud, implying that the rest of the Anaphora is said silently.
Do you know if the word "secretly" was left out of the later Moscow Patriarchate editions (like the one I linked)? Anyone?
Dave [/b]Friends, I wonder why taino has to be secretly. In the cherubikon it is not rendered as such, we say "mystically" in all the English translations I have seen. I know in some modern Slav languages the taj- root gives secret-; an example is tajomnik in Slovak, secretary,; a secretary is someone who keeps secrets if that is not clear. And certainly the rubrical identification of the vozglashenie/ekphonesis means something. Tony
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Originally posted by Tony:
I wonder why taino has to be secretly. In the cherubikon it is not rendered as such, we say "mystically" in all the English translations I have seen. I know in some modern Slav languages the taj- root gives secret-; an example is tajomnik in Slovak, secretary,; a secretary is someone who keeps secrets if that is not clear. Christ is Risen! Because mystiko is the Greek word for secretly, there is no distinction in Greek between mystically and secretly; the same is true in Slavonic. (And note that the Greek word for secretary is mystikos.) Therefore, one translates mystico or taino according to context. To say "The priest prays mystically" does not make any clear sense, but to say "The priest prays secretly" is clear, and it reflects what is done in practice, that the priest recites the prayer in a low voice so that the congregation can not hear him. Photius
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