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Whoops guess I don't have it yet on this forum. My bad. My feeling, if the French don't like it, tough. I am 42 and have seen my fair of changes in the Roman liturgy and can honestly say it pales in sad comparison to the TLM. God bless PBXVI !
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The real recent shock wave was when Fr. Aulagnier, one of if not the first SSPX priest ordained by Archbishop Lefevbre (and his former right hand) along with several other SSPX priests in France formed the "Institute of the Good Shepherd" with the direct blessing of Pope Benedict XVI and have been given great latitude in their operations.
I think the quick growth and movement of the Institute has them running scared. The French bishops could pretend the SSPX didn't exist per the 1988 excommunications. But now the Institute has the direct, undeniable and very public blessing of Rome - and they can't deal with that. There is more than one shop on the block now i.e. the FSSP and the Institute along with several monastic communities (Fontgamboult and Le Barroux) offering the TLM.
While usually realistic about such things I don't look for any backdown from Rome considering the recent comments by the Pope as well as Cardinal Arinze and others. That statement about bi-ritualism is a stunningly ridiculous statement, to say the least, completely disavowing not only common sense but basically the entire history of the Church.
FDD
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Thought this would be inline to respond to the French Bishops...courtesy of the Cafeteria is Closed Blog posted 10/23
Austrian military priest on the new and old Mass
Update: Let me preface this with a quote by then-Cardinal Ratzinger (The priest refers to it)
"Fabricated liturgy has been put in the place of evolved liturgy. People no longer wanted to continue what had been alive, growing and becoming organically, throught the centuries, but instead - following the example of industrial production, manufacturing replaced it, resulting in an instant's flat product."
From an interview in the diocesan paper "Vobiscum" with Fr. Siegfried Lochner from the military academy Wiener Neustadt , via Kreuz.net, translated by me:
What is the traditional liturgy?
The traditional Roman liturgy is first and foremost prayed dogma.
Does it differ in this aspect from the Pauline Mass which was compiled by Monsignor Annibale Bugnini?
Yes. It was the declared goal of Msgr. Bugnini to keep everything specifically Catholic which had been characteristic of the Roman Liturgy from the Mass, as far as possible from the new Mass or to have it watered down, so as to not upset non-Catholics.
What is the old rite like?
In the traditional rite the fullness of the Catholic Faith shines. Even though the faithful in the past could not "understand" everything that was prayed or sung, they nonetheless knew about the content of the sacred act, which was familiar to all practicing Catholics, a lot more than the average believer today.
What do you mean?
Everyone knew that Holy Mass was the non-bloody renewal of Christ's sacrifice on the Cross that was performed by the priest during transfiguration, in persona Christi.
But nowadays Mass is open to all (Communion in particular)...
To Catholics of old, it was clear what Holy Communion was about, what indispoable prerequisites its reception demanded. I remember the long lines for Confession of my childhood. No one would have dared to treat the Blessed Sacrament as nonchalantly as is often the case today.
But the liturgies in Latin....
The Catechism explained to us children why the Church insisted on the language of Rome: because this language best preserves the immutable faith in the worldwide Church, for all people of all places of all times and because it reminds us of the Church Fathers. Today one would speak of "globalization."
How would you compare the old with the new ?
There was a solemn splendor of holiness about the latin High Mass which many non-Catholics could resist. Until the unfortunate reform - one should call it "deformation" - many converts found their way to the Church via the liturgy. The Roman Mass was a perfect work of art.
And the new rite of the Mass?
The new rite of the Mass by Msgr. Bugnini is a construct, a fabrication. People sense the difference between grown, holy liturgy and the "flat product of an instant", as our Holy Father once called Bugnini's construct that Paul VI. mandated for us. People no longer feel at home in church and they aren't drawn by what happens there. Therefore, they no longer attend.
A harsh verdict on the Mass of the Second Vatican Council....
I am not talking about the Mass of the Second Vatican Council. The Mass of Vatican II is what is today referred to as the "pre-conciliar" Mass. All Masses in the time of the Council were celebrated according to the Missal that Pope John XXIII. had re-released.
But the Council wanted liturgical changes ?
Certainly. The statemeent that the Mass of John XXIII. was the Mass of the Council is still correct when one factors in the changes of "Sacrosanctum Concilium". Those changes are very modest, compared to the break with history of 1969. They corresponded to the real intentions of the Council and usually did not go against the spirit of the Roman liturgy. Some valuable things that had been "buried" over the centuries were actually resurrected.
Ignatius Press has a nice booklet entitled "The Mass of Vatican II" - I've attended "new" Masses celebrated according to it.
I agree with the Pope that the new Mass is "an instant's flat product" - especially when accompanied by the braindead music featured in the majority of parishes. They took the old Mass which had been set to music by the greatest composers in history and gave us...Marty Haugen and the St. Louis Jesuits. I think that a spirituality that produced such dullness is rather pedestrian - or, horizontal, as its proponents prefer to call it. It is essential to a sense of the sacred that not everything is plain to see, not everything is spoken. And it is essential that the gaze is lifted upwards and not at one's navel or neighbor.
It was unfortunate that the reform happened in the 1960s. Maybe now a real reform can take place - in the form of evolution rather than revolution. While the Mass is not a museum piece, change should happen naturally, organically and not by the liturgical equivalent of social engineering. To advocate more "participation" is one thing, to mandate hyperactivity is quite another. As far as all the high-falutin' rhetoric by "progressive" liturgists goes - by their fruits you shall know them. A reform that results in sounding like campfire at Camp Lobotomy...ouch.
Obviously, the Tridentine Mass will not replace the new one, but maybe some of the "innovations" can be rolled back. While some things can certainly be mandated/prohibited, a lot depends on the clergy. Only then can the "let's give ourselves a hand" spirit be defeated.
james
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I was told today by someone who knows someone who SAW the document being promulgated (therefore it must be true!  ) that the document declares that the Latin church is a "bi-ritual" entity, calling for the restoration of the primacy of the Tridentine rite within the Latin church and relegating the Ordo of Paul VI to a secondary rite. Every priest of the Latin Chrch will be authorized to celebrate both rites. I personally think this will send shockwaves throughout Latin Catholicism, particularly in dioceses that have modernist leanings. God grant our German Shepherd many years! Gordo
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The Latin Church is already multi-ritual, does this new document say something new or restate the historical realities?
It could be said that the Latin Church is already multi-ritual, but the ritual is ultimately chosen by the local ordinary... in which case.. we will see what changes...
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Originally posted by ebed melech: I was told today by someone who knows someone who SAW the document being promulgated (therefore it must be true! ) that the document declares that the Latin church is a "bi-ritual" entity, calling for the restoration of the primacy of the Tridentine rite within the Latin church and relegating the Ordo of Paul VI to a secondary rite. Every priest of the Latin Chrch will be authorized to celebrate both rites.
I personally think this will send shockwaves throughout Latin Catholicism, particularly in dioceses that have modernist leanings.
God grant our German Shepherd many years!
Gordo A dream come true IMHO !!
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Ebed Melech,
Wish that were true, but I can almost guarantee that it is the opposite: that the Pauline Rite is the ordinary rite of the Roman Church, and the Traditional Rite is the extraordinary.
Fittingly enough, the Pauline Rite is quite ordinary, and the Tridentine is quite extraordinary!
Anyway, judging from numerous people I've talked to, and from what the most knowledgeable blogs say, this is to be the case.
We'll see.
Logos Teen
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Cardinal Arinze was called in for the slap down! Gotta love that guy...no one can ever accuse him of understating anything! Gordo IN FRANCE, CARDINAL ARINZE DECRIES LITURGICAL ABUSES
Oct. 27 (CWNews.com) - The prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship spoke out sharply against liturgical abuses during an October 26 presentation in Paris.
Speaking at the Catholic Institute of Paris, Cardinal Francis Arinze decried the "banalization, desacralization, and secularization of the liturgy." He rebuked priests who take an "overtly egocentric" approach to the liturgy, violating the norms of the Church. And he also criticized priests whose "false humility" leads them to "share their role with the laity."
"The sacred liturgy is not a domain in which free exploration reigns," the Nigerian-born cardinal said. He suggested that many liturgical abuses can be traced to "the undue place given to spontaneity, or creativity, or perhaps a false idea of liberty, or even that error that goes by the name of 'horizontalism,' which consists in placing man at the center of the liturgical celebration instead of directing attention upward, that is toward Christ."
Cardinal Arinze went on to say that priests should deliver homilies that are "rooted in Sacred Scripture," rather than offering thoughts based on sociology, psychology, and politics. He reminded his French audience that priests are ordained to proclaim the Word of God rather than to offer their insights on matters that lay people can study equally well. By interfering in the province of the laity, he added, priests confuse their own role, and "that always causes damage."
In an address that repeated themes frequently set forth in Vatican documents, the prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship concluded with the observation that "the liturgy is not the property of anyone-- neither the celebrant nor the community in which the mysteries are celebrated." He exhorted priests to approach the Mass with reverence and an appreciation for their own role in the Eucharistic mystery.
In a separate address to the conference, Archbishop Andr� Vingt-Trois of Paris-- who is the chancellor of the Catholic Institute-- observed that in France, debates about liturgical practice have been "exploited in a debate of a different order." He explained that some radical Catholics had moved toward "a new model of the Church," through "a celebration of the assembly itself, substituting for a celebration of the work of God." On the other hand, he charged that conservative Catholics have used their defense of liturgical norms as a cover of "a radical critique of the Second Vatican Council."
The archbishop's remarks were obviously a reference to the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X (SSPX). During the past month, French bishops have been outspoken in their criticism of the SSPX, and have expressed severe misgivings that Pope Benedict XVI might appeal to traditionalists by allowing broader use of the old Latin Mass.
Although he did not explicitly mention the SSPX, Archbishop Vingt-Trois did note that successive popes have sought to repair damage to Church unity "since the sad year 1988"-- the year when Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre was excommunicated for ordaining bishops for the SSPX without Vatican approval. The archbishop went on to promise that the French hierarchy would "work calmly and serenely toward the needed reconciliation."
Cardinal Arinze, in his own presentation, did not mention the dispute over the Latin Mass or the reports of a papal document allowing broader use of the traditional liturgy.
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Ten of the French Bishops have just sent a communique' to the Holy Father, pretty much freaking out about both the Institute of the Good Shepherd and the upcoming liberation of the TLM. Here is the website in French: http://catholique-metz.cef.fr/index.php?doc=accueil/article&numero_article=899 And here is a shoddy translation, based on Google's translator and slightly modified by myself: Official statement of the bishops of the ecclesiastical Province of Besancon and the bishops of the certified dioceses of Strasbourg and Metz
Joined together, on October 25, 2006 with _______(?), within the Regional framework of the Authority Bishops Priests, the bishops of the ecclesiastical Province of Besancon and the bishops of the certified dioceses of Strasbourg and Metz decided to make the Holy See aware of their concerns caused by the creation of the Institute of Good Shepherd, in the Archdiocese of Bordeaux, and the possibility of the publication of the Motu Proprio of Pope Benedict XVI, generalizing the use of the Tridentine Rite for the celebration of the Mass.
The bishops, concerned for the common good and the unity of the Church, took this initiative because of the disorder felt by many faithful, deacons and priests of their respective dioceses.
Estimating that the liturgy is the expression of the theology of the Church, the bishops fear that the generalization of the use of the Roman Missal of 1962 does not relativize the orientations [maybe they mean "realize/implement the liturgical changes called for?] of the Second Vatican Council. Such a decision would also be likely to put at risk the unity between the priests [of the abovementioned dioceses], as much as between the faithful.
Since many years of important efforts of liturgical formation were realized, the bishops are delighted [with this liturgical formation] and encourage their diocesan [clergy] to continue committed work.
Monseigneur Andr� LACRAMPE, Archbishop of Besancon
Monseigneur Claude SCHOCKERT, Bishop of Belfort-Montbeliard
Monseigneur Jean-Louis PAPIN, Bishop of Nancy and Toul
Monseigneur Jean LEGREZ, Bishop of Saint-Claude
Monseigneur Jean-Paul MATHIEU, Bishop of Saint-Di�
Monseigneur Fran�ois MAUPU, Bishop of Verdun
Monseigneur Joseph GILDS, apostolic Administrateur of Strasbourg
Monseigneur Christian KRATZ, auxiliary Bishop of Strasbourg
Monseigneur Jean-Pierre GRALLET, auxiliary Bishop of Strasbourg
Monseigneur Pierre RAFFIN, Bishop of Metz
I disagree with so much of this statement that I'd have to write a book to explain it all, but I thought that this was quite pertinent to the topic at hand. Logos Teen
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I'm afraid that "relativize the orientations" really is what the bishops said - and I can only assume that this vague expression is what they meant (it pops up now and then from the Roman Curia, usually in the form that such-and-such is "contrary to the orientations of the Holy See". In fact, that may have been why the bishops used the phrase - it's just possible that someone had a sense of humor. But not likely.
If they honestly believe that almost no one will take advantage of the broadened possibility of access to the 1962 Mass, what are they concerned about?
Fr. Serge
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This is why the Old Mass-Missal of Pius V is needed...only in L.A. with the approval of Cardinal Mahony...and from The Tidings, official newspaper of the Archdiocese... "The Oct. 29 kick-off event is a Missa Gaia (Earth Mass), 8 p.m. at the Sacred Heart Chapel with Jesuit Father John Coleman presiding. The contemporary liturgy celebrates the whole earth as a sacred space by integrating recorded sounds such as the calls of wolves, whales, eagles and seals".  Yet the Cardinal restricts the Indult... james
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the use of the Roman Missal of 1962 does not relativize the orientations [maybe they mean "realize/implement the liturgical changes called for?] of the Second Vatican Council Teen: What if you substituted "realize" for "relativize" and "directions" for "orientations"? the use of the Roman Missal of 1962 does not realize the directions (hoped for) by the Second Vatican Council BOB
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Father Serge:
Father bless!!
They might be afraid that so many young people are turned off enough that they don't come to Liturgy after they leave for university and often come back only--when they do--for subsequent wedding or to baptise an infant.
On the other hand, the TLM, when it is done well, seems to have a magnetic attraction for young people who have known nothing more than the Liturgy of Paul VI. Can't explain why, but the young people seem to continue to be attracted to this ancient form of liturgy and it doesn't seem to be a "flash in the pan."
In Christ,
BOB
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Bob,
Yes, that'd fit much better. Thanks.
Logos Teen
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Originally posted by Jakub.: This is why the Old Mass-Missal of Pius V is needed...only in L.A. with the approval of Cardinal Mahony...and from The Tidings, official newspaper of the Archdiocese...
"The Oct. 29 kick-off event is a Missa Gaia (Earth Mass), 8 p.m. at the Sacred Heart Chapel with Jesuit Father John Coleman presiding. The contemporary liturgy celebrates the whole earth as a sacred space by integrating recorded sounds such as the calls of wolves, whales, eagles and seals".
Yet the Cardinal restricts the Indult...
james James, I can't tell you how much I'd like to attend the grand "kick-off" event! At least they won't be singing "Eagles Wings"... or maybe they will be. These people remind me of adolescents who demand freedom, get it, and then become completely bored out of their minds - literally. They do not love the Mass, the Church, or, I dare say, Jesus Christ Himself. They are only interested in taking their teenage rebellion as far as they possibly can. I love it when the grown ups are in charge! Gordo
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