www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Greek Church rejects modernizing look

Fr. Mark,

I'm thinking of monks. So sorry!

All tongue in cheek Joe.

God bless.

Fr Mark.

Francisco,

My comments were in jest. I'm sorry that they were offensive. I have been to too many pilgrimages where the priests themselves have appeared unkempt and raggy while their wives have both attractive and smartly dressed. I have every respect for those who choose to follow the older cultural customs although I do think it, at times, does hinder their ability to proclaim the Gospel.

My point is that beards themselves should have absolutely nothing to do with Orthodoxy (and I say this as someone who has worn a beard for many years). The length of a beard is not a measure of holiness. If a priest wishes to wear one I think that is great. But I think it is unfair to judge someone as being less than holy just because he is clean-shaven. We must keep in mind exactly how these customs developed in the first place. Most of these type of customs were simply local cultural customs that hung on in the Church. If so, there is absolutely nothing wrong with adapting them to the present day.

Admin

Dear Administrator,

I did not found your post "offensive" although I desagree with the general character of all this "nosense" discussion. I agree with Father Mark that "this thread is taking a silly direction unworthy of the forum". I would ask all the members of this forum (me included) to be extremely careful when talking about other traditions, nationalities or sensibilities. Please do not get offended if I say that from time to time I wonder if this is a Eastern Catholic (or Byzantine forum if you prefer) or just a Russian-Ukranian-Ruthenian forum. Unfortunately some members of this forum use to consider "right" whatever has relation with the Russian-Ukranian-Ruthenian tradition and "wrong" whatever is strange to this particular tradition. For example, in our discussion about Gregory Palamas (believe me that I do not want to go back to this discussion) most people considered that he was to be considered a saint, among other reasons, because he is celebrated like a saint by most Slavic Byzantine Catholic Churches. I tried to show them that he was not celebrated like a saint in other Byzantine traditions. Another example, in America you have got an official Byzantine Catholic Catecism, well in the rest of the world, as far as I know, there is no official Byzantine or Eastern Catholic Catecism, do not expect from other people to know or to share the oppinions of this catecism that has got only official character for the Byzantine Church in America. The point is that there are a lot of traditions in the great Byzantine family and we, all of us, must learn to respect all of them.

Yours in Christ,

Francisco

Dear Francisco,

So far, you are the only person here who has raised the issue of "offense."

I have about 7 married priests in my family who have beards.

It was always joked about at home during Easter and Christmas.

My wife's grandfather had a friend who became an Orthodox priest with a beard.

I never heard him start a conversation with him other than with "How is your Orthodox beard?" And to this he always replied, "It's still growing strong!"

In Ukraine, among both Catholics and Orthodox, the beard at times did connote Russophilism and Russian identity which is why priests with long beards were called "Katsapy" which is very offensive.

But I appreciate your comments. I guess we all had a bit of a "close shave" in this regard . . .

Alex

Dear Alex,

Sincerely I think that beards are not the point here. What do you mean when you say "you are the only person here who has raised the issue of "offense"? Yes I am quite vehement from time to time, if that is what you mean, and certainly my oppinions have been found offensive by some members of this forum but I think that I have not offended any one deliverately in this forum. Francisco

Dear Francisco,

No, you certainly have not!

Have a great weekend!

(I take it you do NOT have a beard? )

Alex

"Sooooo-phiiiii-iiii-iaaaaa! Orrrrr-thiiii!"

Wisdom! Let us be attentive! Be attentive!!! (Smell of incense; jingle of bells and clanging of chains.) The Resident Greek speaks.

Our father St. Paul speaks: "The priest is a man chosen by God from among the people, in order to serve the people in the things that pertain to God."

Since the man chosen by God to be priest is taken from the community, then he must reflect the community. If the men in the community have only 3% beards, why should the priest feel obliged to have a beard? It's not a 'sacramental'; it's a fashion statement. If the priest looks like and acts like the men of the community, then he is clearly a part of the community and is not a self-imposed alien because he deliberately alienates himself from the group of men.

In the old country, where a small percentage of men have beards (been there, seen that), then why should the man who is called by God to be priest have to become a perpetual Halloween?

He's a man. He would love to find a wonderful woman with whom to share his life, including his priestly life. Should he find such a wonderful gift, why should "historical costuming" act as an impediment to his being able to find and bond with his soul-mate? It's the MAN! He too has needs and desires, and since they are legitimate (with apologies to our urban Irish-American RCs and their 'noli me tangere' ethic), let the man court his chosen one, let them work out how they live and dress, and let them discern how their upcoming marriage will integrate with his vocation to serve God's peoples.

If the men wear beards; let the priest be free to have one. If the mode is a goatee, let him be free to have one. If the priest likes to dance, let him clasp his wife's hand and let them dance till they drop. If they love movies, let them go and enjoy -- and eat all the popcorn they want to. Or ride roller coasters. Or if the priest wants to go hunting in the woods with his brothers or cousins, then let him go. (And let his wife whine like all the other wives when the hubby is gone.)

The priest is not some disembodied entity; he is a man -- just like the rest of us guys. And he does guy things -- including loving and adoring his wife and his children.

DON'T impose artificial stuff on him. His job is waaaaay more than hard enough. The biggest impediment to priestly vocations: Nazi laity who have a preconceived notion of what a priest is supposed to be (they've read too many ecclesiastical comic-books) and their insistence that the priest fulfil their idealized image of "priest" even to the point of stalking him.

(As a young Jesuit seminarian, I went with several classmates to a local bar near BC after a solid drumming of the Orangement of Syracuse. I wore a Roman collar. My classmates and I had had a few beers and were discussing something stupid about Old Church Slavonic grammar, when a man came up to me and demanded that I leave since I was clearly a member of the clergy and being in a bar was a 'scandal'. Gee, I guess I should have gone back to the cloister and knelt down and lighted candles in thanksgiving for BC's victory over the nonCatholic Orangemen. What a crock. It just made me clear that living the Gospel is one thing; dealing with the well-intentioned but incredibly stupid and insensitive is another. That is the clergy's burden. Pray for our priests and our bishops that they not be assaulted and bludgeoned by the self-righteous.)

For Greece, let the men be men. Let them live their lives as God has ordained. May they find a most wonderful woman with whom to share their lives. And may the fossilized go to an early reward.

Blessings!

Dear Friends in Christ,

It is Orthodox Tradition for clergy not to cut their hair. It is what is expected and recognized by Traditional Orthodox Christians. The priest does not dance, smoke or go to bars. The riason is a form of spiritual protection and reminds us of the angelic nature of the priesthood and of our own temporary sojourn here on earth. Being a Christian has never been popular and when it has it has been on the broad path of compromise. The beard does not make the priest (Greek saying) which means that a priest has to live up to his high calling, not compromise for the sake of vanity or weakness. If I cut my hair, my Matushka would divorce me and then cut off my head! Anyway I speak from a Traditional standpoint. I remember visiting Lebanon from Mt Athos and meeting an American/Arab bishop, complete with pin-striped suit and goatee and a long cigarette holder. He was quite embarassed when I asked for a blessing, he didn't know where to place his cigarette. Oh well that was his problem not mine. Personally I don't want to be one of the guys and I hope that our parishioners don't either.

Yours in Christ,
Fr Serafim

Dear Dr John,

Do not forget that Greece is not America. A lot of things are different in the Old Continent. The Americam Catholics priests are not better than the Europeans ones and the Europeans priests are not better than the Americans, they are just different. I come from a Western European country, Spain, one of my father's friends is a catholic priestpriest, he has served the Catholic Church in California for years. Well he is a really wonderful person and everybody loves him in my village (except my village parish priest) but I suppose that if he would like to come back to Spain he would find a lot of problems to be accepted like parish-priest in a Spanish Catholic parish. For example, when he comes to my village during the summer, the parish priest of my village does not allow him to be the president-celebrant of the mass or even to preach !!! Although he was born in Spain, he is too American now for the Spanish Church. I dont agree with this attitude but I just want to show you that Europe is not America. Priests in Greece or in Spain are quite different from the American ones. Probably they have a lot of things to learn from you and viceversa.

Dear monk Seraphim,

You say "It is Orthodox Tradition for clergy not to cut their hair. It is what is expected and recognized by Traditional Orthodox Christians". I must desagree with you, father, not to cut hair is a quite recent use among the Orthodox clergy. In Byzantine Empire most secular priest had their hair cut, not to cut their hair is a quite recent use that was introduced among the Greek Orthodox clergy during the Othoman Domination in the Balkans. The officials of the Othoman Empire used not to cut their hair, Orthodox bishops decided to do the same. The long-hairefd and long-bearded look of the Orthodox clergy can be explained as well as part of the influence of Orthodox monks in Orthodox secular clergy in this same period. I do not know about Russia.

Yours in Christ,

Francisco

Dear Francisco,

Forgive me for starting a beard debate, but I think you will find that Moslems adopted Orthdox Christians practices, especially from the Arians. It has always been a part of Holy Tradition to grow one's beard. In Leviticus it is forbidden to trim the hair or beard. Again Our Lord, the Holy Apostles wore beards in accordance with this law. There is an Apostolic canon that condemns cutting hair and the holy fathers such as St Cyprian of Carthage and St Clement condemn such practices.

Also there is a western rite for the tonsuring of a young man's beard. I can't guarantee the authenticity of this ancient practice in England, but I found this on a website today!

I do encourage our people to grow their beards - I don't believe that you can't bury someone who is beardless, as some Russian priests believe. If one choses to shave, again that is his choice.

Yours in Christ,
Fr Serafim

Dear Friends,

To beard or not to beard, that is the question . . .

Certainly, Sts. Anthony, John and Eustathius of Vilna were targeted as Christians because of their beards.

St Basil the Great, was it, who once said, "When I grab my beard, I know I am not a woman . . ."

Ultimately, the beard, like the tassels and fringes one wore on one's garments, signified the flowing streams of Divine Grace upon one's head and beard, as with Aaron's, as we read in Psalm 132.

But why is Orthodoxy itself divided on this issue?

Alex

I think what it boils down to is that we are not appreciating the difference between big "T' Tradition and small "t' tradition. The insistence on having a beard is apparently a small t tradition. It can not be imposed on everyone as a perquisite to being a Priest. Indian Orthodox wear earrings and Ethiopian Orthodox have Cross tattoos. These are small t traditions.

If we were to each proclaim our small t traditions as the basis of Faith then that would force me to say that none of you, including my sister Oriental Churches, have Churches because none of you have a Tabot (miniature Arks of the Covenant) without which we do not consider a Church to be consecrated and is only a building. That is our small t tradition.

I would love for all of you not to eat that disgusting beastly swine meat but for me to insist would be trying to impose our small t tradition. During the time of the Apostles there was the “Gospel of the circumcised” (James and the Jerusalem synod) and the “Gospel of the non-circumcised” (Peter and Paul among the Gentiles); what united them was their adherence to the Tradition of the Church; what made them different were their respective small "t' traditions of getting circumcised or not getting circumcised and following or not following Jewish custom; neither were wrong.

Even the Calendar is a small t tradition; while of course the topic can spark flames, fanaticism and irrational commentary on both sides, it is nevertheless small t.

Selam Aklie!

Ah, now that I have you here my dear Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo friend . . .

Could you explain more about the Cross tattoos? I've heard of them. Where are they placed and how - within the context of a liturgical service or blessing? Who may wear them?

Also, are even smaller Tabots used privately for worship in the home of laity?

Yours in Takla Haymont, Abuna Ewostatewos and Abuna Manfas Keddus,

Alex

Selam Alex!

Good questions. First let me inform you that getting tattoos is something that is restrictive to the country side; no one born in the city would have a tattoo.

The tattoos can come on the hand, the arm or the forehead. The women usually are the only ones who get crosses tattooed on their forehead. In fact, I would not be surprised if the ratio of men to women with tattoos was 1/8 with the females as the 8.

They are given with painful traditional tattooing techniques when you are a baby. Like Ethiopian circumcision, the process does not take place inside the Church but by a village specialist or even a family member. It is simply meant to identify one as a Christian (as opposed to a Muslim or Jew) and has no role at all in liturgical service.

There is a history behind tattoo prevalence. Of course it was always practiced one way or another (as witnessed by similar tattoo traditions in East Africa and the Sahara) and no doubt people were making them in the form of Crosses since the beginning of Christian times. During the reign of Atse (emperor) Zara Yaqob (1434-68) a controversy called the Stephanite heresy took place. The Stephenites refused to venerate the cross and refused to bow to icons of Mary. In fact, their view of Mary seems proto-Protestant.

Zara Yaqob was a devout Orthodox who was educated in a Monastery. He himself has written several spiritual books and built many Churches. But he was no joke on dealing with heretics. It is said that he had two of his own children executed for practicing paganism. When the Stephanite heresy took place, he invited them to the court to defend their views. After showing them the flaws in their theology he shut down their ministry (usually the Patriarch or the most talented Clergy were used to debate heretics but Zara Yaqob was talented enough to personally participate in the debate). He reminded Ethiopians that they are the fiefdom of Mary and that Stephanite views were unacceptable. He also reminded them of Christ's words to carry the Cross.

So, to make sure that the nation got the point he commanded everyone (and especially Stephanites) to get the Cross tattooed on their body. What ever small scale this practice was before the heresy it became massive in its aftermath. He also made them get words tattooed on their arm that read “I deny the devil, I am a slave of Mary.” (of course no one wears that particular tattoo anymore.

There is nothing funnier than watching an Ethiopian woman who converted to Pentecostalism running up and down screaming and tongue speaking in church with a big fat Orthodox Cross tattooed on her forehead.

Also, are even smaller Tabots used privately for worship in the home of laity?

Absolutely not; when the Tabot comes out on the Saints day in a special service to be marched in procession it is covered. The laity, including Deacons, are not allowed to even touch it. If they do, then a special service just to ritually cleanse the Tabot is made. Take it home? One of our local Churches is actually inside of the Assyrian Catholic Church. The Assyrians have said that we can use the Tabot in our services but can not leave it on the Altar afterwards. So the Priest takes it home with him. This is a well kept secret because it is actually a scandal. Needless to say, that the Brits having some of our Tabots that they looted sitting in boxes inside of the Museum storage is an insult of the first order.