www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgy Question

That is NOT the Eucharist in the procession. This is the bread and wine on it's way to the altar.

ICXC
NIKA

Christ is Risen!

Yes and no, but mostly no. In Orthodox theology in my understanding there is no clearly defined moment as to when the change takes place. It was explained to me that during the Great Entrance the change is taking place already, though at this point we would not prostrate ourselves before the gifts. We do show them reverence and yes as the previous poster mentioned everyone in the congregation will follow along facing the gifts as they process through the church (and no I don't remember anybody doing that in the UGCC churches I visited now that I think about it). People bow to the gifts as they pass, cross themselves and in some traditions will even kneel even though normally that would not be done on Sundays. In my church as well people will reach out to touch our priests vestments (typically the back of the phelonion).

Even the crumbs of antidoron in my church are not supposed to fall and be trampled upon. They are not just bread.

Andrew

It is my understanding that the Consecration takes place on the Antimension placed on the Thronos (altar) in the context of the Anaphora (Eucharistic prayer).

True the bread and wine have been set aside from all other bread and wine but until it is consecrated it is still just that.

We also know that the call to close the doors comes after the Great Entrance and then the Creed starts. So nothing would have been consecrated up to that point but we are definately getting close.

It is a solemn prosession of the various ranks of servers and clergy and it is appropriate for people to turn towards where ever it goes in the church and show reverence. It is moments like this western seating arrangments are such a pain.

ICXC
NIKA

Christ is Risen!

The gifts during the Great Entrance are not consecrated, but I can only reiterate that what I have been told is that the process of change has begun. We also however do not prostrate before the gifts at this time as we would if they were in the altar and already fully consecrated or as they are brought in during the presanctified liturgy.

They are not merely bread and wine any more though. I simply cannot agree with that assertion. They have been blessed and set aside. I have been taught that even if crumbs from our antidoron fall on the floor, we pick them up and eat them. Would we be comfortable with stopping the Great Entrance and taking a portion of the gifts out to the trapeza for anybody just to come along and eat and drink or dispose of if unwanted?

The reverence shown during the Great Entrance is in my opinion as much for the gifts themselves as it is for the clergy. When people bow deeply and cross themselves as the chalice goes by, it is my assumption they are doing this more in reverence for the gifts than those bearing them.

Andrew

[I don't mean to sound harsh or argumentative, btw]

I will leave this at this point for a Priest to clarify matters.

ICXC
NIKA

Interesting question. I, too, get the impression that the gifts are somehow "more holy than usual" as they are being brought to the altar; as Andrew mentioned, everyone turns and follows the procession, and many cross themselves and try to touch the priest's vestments as he passes by (as if he's embued with extra 'holiness' by virtue of the gifts that he's carrying).

I've never fully understood the reasons for this reverence, though. As Pavel suggested, perhpas it's a question best directed to a priest.

God bless,

Chris

I didn't read the whole thread so maybe this has been covered already, but...


I've been to one Eastern Orthodox church and one Eastern Catholic church. The EC is the one with the longer liturgy and the more "Eastern" building; the EO one is the one that has pews and well-used kneelers.

I've never heard of any Greek-Catholic parish omitting the Epiclesis! However, in most parishes (both Orthodox and Greek-Catholic) the Epiclesis, along with most of the rest of the Anaphora, is done in silence while the choir and/or congregation is singing its part, so one might be forgiven for failing to notice the Epiclesis.

Along that line, many decades ago I happened to be at an Orthodox education conference which featured, among other things, a nice film of the Divine Liturgy from a Greek Orthodox parish in California. I happened to be seated for the film next to a lady whom I did not know. When the film showed the priests receiving Holy Communion, she was quite startled and said to me that she had never known that the priests received Holy Communion during the Divine Liturgy.

So it's amazing what people can miss - and it points out the importance of education.

Incognitus