www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology No sinner can be saved except through the Virgin's help (St. Ignatius the Martyr)

Okay y'all lost me .... I read the title "No sinner can be saved except through the Virgin's help" to mean "No sinner can be saved except through the Virgin's ASSISTANCE". It doesn't say she is God, only that she assists us poor sinners.

Guess we all read differently .

Don't worry, Lawrence, I believe it was one of the Cappadocians who implied that we will all be saved anyway.

Joe

And what help/assistance would that be? How does that help fit in with the doctrine of Theosis and synergy? Does she proceed from the Holy Spirit or the Father? I read two words that qualify the thread's title: "no" (as in NO sinner) and "except" (as in EXCEPT through). Is this role the same as the role of the Holy Spirit? Can we partake of the divine nature ONLY through Mary's help?

Is the Divine Economy thus?:

Father -> Son -> Holy Spirit -> Mary

or:

Father -> Son -> Mary

Joe

Dear Cantor Joseph,

The Deified Humanity of Christ came to us via the Most Holy Theotokos according to God's plan.

She herself participates in that Theosis and leads us to do so as well.

Sorry, but I find your posts rather disturbing as your point of departure (and also that of Charles above) seems to be an issue that is Latin in nature and really has nothing to do with the East.

Alex

You are correct that the people I referenced as extreme in their Marian devotion were Latin Rite. They were all rabid rosary nuts, as well. Not that there was any connection between the two, but they went on about Fatima and how Mary would save the world through the rosary, etc. Strangely enough, they often referenced Mary but seldom mentioned Christ. I haven't encounted such unbalanced Marian devotion in the Eastern Churches - well, actually I have encountered a lesser degree of it among some Latinized Byzantines. That doesn't mean it's not there in the East, I just haven't encountered it in as extreme a form as in the Latin Rite. So I am afraid to say it's more common in the West, since I don't have any data to back that up.

Alex,

Sorry for participating in the discussion. Would any discussion progress if we all agreed up front? I enjoy approaching topics from different, if not unique, angles. Thank you for responding. You keep me on my toes, ya know.

In addition to your first statement, don't forget that in the Creed we also profess that, "He came down from heaven and was incarnate from the Holy Spirit ..." You forgot the bit about the Holy Spirit, which only highlights the point I've been trying to make.

Joe

Dear ByzanTN, I thought that the teaching of the Eastern Church has ALWAYS been that the Most Holy Trinity resides at the High Place in all of our churches...and I thought further that ALL the Saints and Angels...as well as the Mother of God were present in all of our holy temples during all the services always? That's what we have always been taught...and I firmly believe it. Your lack of belief and departure from our tradition saddens me.

In His Holy Name,
+Fr. Gregory

Actual biological mother of the Incarnate Logos. She contained the Infinite; she cradled Unapproachable; She gave the Ineffable His name.

"pretty special"?

I can't help thinking that folks who are reluctant about her veneration, are somehow not rightly awed by the Mystery of Incarnation.

I don't think it is an issue of being reluctant about her veneration. No one denies her intercessory role or being the Mediatrix (and rightfully having the traditional place between the Pantocrator - in the dome - and the saints/Apostles below).

The issue is directed the other way: Do some unintentionally ecclipse/substitute the role of the Holy Spirit with Mary? Though this problem might not have been one that the original poster intended, I submit the question anyway (and I apologize for taking the wind out of the thread's original sail).

Mary has always been considered our Mother and the heart of the Church. She is "special" because she alone deserves hyperdulia. This was settled long ago.

Joe

There's a little more to it than that. The "extremists" I mentioned believe that Mary's presence is required for a valid consecration to occur and that somehow she has a role in that consecration. I will agree that the presence and activity of the priest are required, but I think they go a bit too far.

OK---I feel much better...sorry for the misunderstanding.

In Christ Who is Born for us,
+Fr. Gregory

It's OK. No apology needed. I think the Latin Church also holds that the Heavenly Court is a witness at the Mass, if I am not mistaken.

Dear djs and Fr. Gregory,

I just love the two of you so very much!

Alex

Dear Cantor Joseph,

No need to apologise either, Big Guy!

You keep me on my toes more than I keep you, I should think.

It's just that for me, the subject under discussion is a matter of faith rather than, well, discussion . . .

Whenever the issue of the Mother of Christ comes up here, well, she is like my own Mother.

And she is, yours too, and Fr. Gregory's and Charles' and djs' etc.

God bless,

Alex

Yes, but we are convinced you were adopted. I used to tell that to my little brother. He would run from the room crying for my mom.