www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology No sinner can be saved except through the Virgin's help (St. Ignatius the Martyr)

Dear Father Deacon Edward,

Yes, I think the genius of both Orthodox and Catholic traditions (after reading Cantor Joseph's comments, I'm now a bit confused as to which is the really true Church ), is that they reflect the truth that God mediates salvation to us in Christ.

That salvation is mediated through the Divine Incarnation, "the Man Christ Jesus" as St Paul says.

It is further mediated through the Body of Christ that is the Church, through the sacraments/mysteries, the Divine Liturgy, the Church's prayer and the prayers and intercession of the Most Holy Virgin Mary and all the Angels and Saints.

All of creation is transfigured and Divinized in Christ by means of the Holy Spirit to the glory of God the Father!

(Do you think I should have been a priest?)

Alex

Dear Fr. Gregory,

I am well aware of how we can participate in the mission of salvation. But I am worried that the distinction between ministers of salvation and the source of salvation can become blurred. Evangelicals have a problem between latria and dulia. They think we Catholics or Orthodox Christians worship everything. Darn whores of Babylon!

You quote above thusly: "Mary volitionally relinquished her will to the will of God, thus cooperating fully with the purpose of God." This is the big one: SYNERGY or the full cooperation with/in the Holy Spirit. Participation in the Divine Nature. Deification. Theosis. But just as the Mormons can take Deification to the extreme (we all become little gods), Christians with irrational exhuberance for Mary, the Theotokos, can begin implying that she is the ultimate source/font of salvation. In the end, it is God who saves. We can only participate; hence the clerical ministers words of Baptism that one is baptized, not "I baptize." We also sing during the prefestive season of the Nativity of our Lord, "Come, Lord Jesus, our Savior, Redeem and Save us!" Salvation in the second person is mentioned only four times; hardly a small point.

So, what exactly sets aside Mary from the rest of the vessels and/or ministers of salvation? Her extreme synergy? Her virgin-birth? Her role as Theotokos? Or is Mary an ontologically different being from humans? a different nature, a different being, a different essence.

Joe

Dear Cantor Joseph,

The extreme form of Mariology you mention was an issue in the West.

But not really in the East where the true Catholic Church is . . .

Alex

The Orthodox Veneration of
the Most Holy Mother of God
by St. John (Maximovitch), Wonderworker, Archbishop of Shanghai & San Francisco

The Orthodox Church teaches about the Mother of God that which Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture have informed concerning Her, and daily it glorifies Her in its temples, asking Her help and defence. Knowing that She is pleased only by those praises which correspond to Her actual glory, the Holy Fathers and hymn-writers have entreated Her and Her Son to teach them how to hymn Her. "Set a rampart about my mind, O my Christ, for I make bold to sing the praise of Thy pure Mother" (Ikos of the Dormition). "The Church teaches that Christ was truly born of Mary Ever-Virgin" (St. Epiphanius, "True Word Concerning the Faith").

"It is essential for us to confess that the holy Ever-Virgin Mary is actually Theotokos (Birth-giver of God), so as not to fall into blasphemy. For those who deny that the Holy Virgin is actually Theotokos are no longer believers, but disciples of the Pharisees and Sadducees" (St. Ephraim the Syrian, "To John the Monk").

From Tradition it is known that Mary was the daughter of the aged Joachim and Anna, and that Joachim descended from the royal line of David, and Anna from the priestly line. Notwithstanding such a noble origin, they were poor. However, it was not this that saddened these righteous ones, but rather the fact they did not have children and could not hope that their descendants would see the Messiah. And behold, when once, being disdained by the Hebrews for their barrenness, they both in grief of soul were offering up prayers to God - Joachim on a mountain to which he had retired after the priest did not want to offer his sacrifice in the Temple and Anna, in her own garden, weeping over her barrenness -- there appeared to them an angel who informed them that they would bring forth a daughter. Overjoyed, they promised to consecrate their child to God.

In nine months a daughter was born to them, called Mary, Who from Her early childhood manifested the best qualities of soul. When She was three years old, her parents, fulfilling their promise, solemnly led the little Mary to the Temple of Jerusalem; She Herself ascended the high steps and, by revelation from God, She was led into the very Holy of Holies by the High Priest who met Her, taking with Her the grace of God which rested upon Her into the Temple which until then had been without grace. (See the Kontakion of the Entry into the Temple. This was the newly-built Temple into which the glory of God had not descended as it had upon the Ark or upon the Temple of Solomon). She was settled in the quarters for virgins which existed in the Temple, but She spent so much time in prayer in the Holy of Holies that one might say that She lived in it. (Service to the Entry, second Sticheron on "Lord, I have cried,"and the "Glory, Both Now Being adorned with all virtues, She manifested an example of extraordinarily pure life. Being submissive and obedient in all, She offended no one, said no crude word to anyone, was friendly to all and did not allow any unclean thought (abridged from St.Ambrose of Milan, "Concerning the Ever-Virginity of the Virgin Mary").

"Despite the righteousness and the immaculateness of life which the Mother of God led, sin and eternal death manifested their presence in Her. They could not but be manifested: Such is the precise and faithful teaching of the Orthodox Church concerning the Mother of God with relation to original sin and death" (Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov, "Exposition of the Teaching of the Orthodox Church on the Mother of God"). "A stranger to any fall into sin" (St. Ambrose of Milan, Commentary on the 118th Psalm), She was not a stranger to sinful temptations. "God alone is without sin" (St. Ambrose, same source), while man will always have in himself something yet needing correction and perfection in order to fulfil the commandment of God; Be ye holy as I the Lord your God am Holy (Leviticus 19:2). The more pure and perfect one is, the more he notices his imperfections and considers himself all the more unworthy.

The Virgin Mary, having given Herself entirely up to God, even though She repulsed from herself every impulse to sin, still felt the weakness of human nature more powerfully than others and ardently desired the coming of the Saviour. In Her humility She considered Herself unworthy to be even the servant-girl of the Virgin Who was to give Him birth. So that nothing might distract Her from prayer and heedfulness to Herself, Mary gave to God a vow not to become married, in order to please only Him Her whole life long. Being betrothed to the elderly Joseph when Her age no longer allowed Her to remain in the Temple, She settled in his house in Nazareth. Here the Virgin was vouchsafed the coming of the Archangel Gabriel who brought Her the good tidings of the birth from Her of the Son of the Most High. Hail, Thou that art full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed an Thou among women ... The Holy Spirit shall come upon Thee and the power of the Most High shall overshadow Thee: wherefore also that which is to be born shall be holy and shall be called the Son of God (Luke 1:28-35).

Mary received the angelic good tidings humbly and submissively. "Then the Word, in a way known to Himself, descended and, as He Himself willed, came and entered into Mary and abode in Her" (St. Ephraim the Syrian, "Praise of the Mother of God"). "As lightning illuminates what is hidden, so also Christ purifies what is hidden in the nature of things. He purified the Virgin also and then was born, so as to show that where Christ is, there is manifest purity in all its power. He purified the Virgin, having prepared Her by the Holy Spirit, and then the womb, having become pure, conceived Him. He purified the Virgin while She was inviolate; wherefore, having been born, He left Her virgin. I do not say that Mary became immortal, but that being illuminated by grace, She was not disturbed by sinful desires" (St. Ephraim the Syrian, Homily Against Heretics, 41). The Light abode in Her, cleansed Her mind, made Her thoughts pure, made chaste Her concerns, sanctified Her virginity" (St.Ephraim the Syrian, "Mary and Eve") "Once who was pure according to human understanding, He made pure by grace" (Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov, "Exposition of the Teaching of the Orthodox Church on the Mother of God").

Mary told no one of the appearance of the angel, but the angel himself revealed to Joseph concerning Mary's miraculous conception from the Holy Spirit (Matt. 1:l8-25); and after the Nativity of Christ, with a multitude of the heavenly host, he announced it to the shepherds. The shepherds, coming to worship the new-born one, said that they had heard of Him. Having previously endured suspicion in silence, Mary now also listened in silence and kept in her heart the sayings concerning the greatness of Her Son (Luke 2:8-19). She heard forty days later Symeon's prayer of praise and the prophecy concerning the weapon which would pierce Her soul. Later She saw how Jesus advanced in wisdom; She heard Him at the age of twelve teaching in the Temple and everything She kept in Her heart (Luke 2:21-51)

Even though full of grace, She did not yet fully understand in what the service and the greatness of Her Son would consist. The Hebrew conceptions of the Messiah were still close to Her and natural feelings forced Her to be concerned for Him, preserving Him from labours and dangers which it might seem, were excessive. Therefore She favoured Her Son involuntarily at first, which evoked His indication of the superiority of spiritual to bodily kinship (Matt. 12:46-49). "He had concern also over the honour of His Mother, but much more over the salvation of Her soul and the good of men, for which He had become clothed in flesh" (St.John Chrysostom, Commentary on John, Homily 21). Mary understood this and heard the word of God and kept it (Luke 11:27,28). As no other person, She had the same feelings as Christ (Phil. 2:5), unmurmuringly bearing the grief of a mother when She saw Her Son persecuted and suffering. Rejoicing in the day of the Resurrection, on the day of Pentecost. She was clothed with power from on high (Luke 24:49). The Holy Spirit Who descended upon Her taught (Her) all things (John 14:26), and instructed (Her) in all truth (John 16:13). Being enlightened, She began to labour all the more zealously to perform what She had heard from Her Son and Redeemer, so as to ascend to Him and be with Him.

The end of the earthly life of the Most Holy Mother of God was the beginning of Her greatness. "Being adorned with Divine glory" (Irmos of the Canon of the Dormition), She stands and will stand, both in the day of the Last Judgment and in the future age, at the right hand of the throne of Her Son. She reigns with Him and has boldness towards Him as His Mother according to the flesh and as one in spirit with Him, as one who performed the will of God and instructed others (Matt. 5:19). Merciful and full of love, She manifests Her love towards Her Son and God in love for the human race. She intercedes for it before the Merciful One, and going about the earth, She helps men.

Having experienced all the difficulties of earthly life, the Intercessor of the Christian race sees every tear, hears every groan and entreaty directed to Her. Especially near to Her are those who labour in the battle with the passions and are zealous for a God-pleasing life. But even in worldly cares She is an irreplaceable helper. "Joy of all who sorrow, and intercessors for the offended, and feeder of the hungry, consolation of travellers, harbour of the storm-tossed, visitation of the sick, protection and intercessor for the inform staff of old age, Thou are the Mother of God on high, O Most Pure One" (Sticheron of the Service to the Hodigitria). "The hope and intercession and refuge of Christians", "The Mother of God unceasing in prayers" (Theotokion of the Third Tone). "She day and night doth pray for us and the sceptres of kingdoms are confirmed by Her prayers" (daily Nocturne).

There is no intellect or words to express the greatness of Her Who was born in the sinful human race but became "more honourable than the Cherubim and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim." "Seeing the grace of the secret mysteries of God made manifest and clearly fulfilled in the Virgin, I rejoice; and I know not how to understand the strange and secret manner whereby the Undefiled has been revealed as alone chosen above all creation, visible and spiritual. Therefore, wishing to praise Her, I am struck dumb with amazement in both mind and speech. Yet still I dare to proclaim and magnify Her: She is indeed the heavenly Tabernacle" (Ikos of the Entry into the Temple). "Every tongue is at a loss to praise Thee as is due; even a spirit from the world above is filled with dizziness, when it seeks to sing Thy praises, 0 Theotokos. But since Thou art good, accept our faith. Thou knowest well our love inspired by God, for Thou art the Protector of Christians and we magnify Thee" (Irmos of the 9th Canticle, Service of the Theophany).

Her servant always,
+Fr. Gregory

"Nobody can achieve salvation except through thee....O most Holy One . nobody can receive a gift of grace except through thee...O Most Chaste One"
St Germanus of Constantinople

Bless, Father Gregory,

Thank you for that beautiful reference from my wife's distant relative, St John Maximovych!

It is important to note that the reference to original sin has NOTHING to do with any idea of "stain of sin" that is inherited.

It has only to do with the consequences of the sin of Adam, namely death.

And in this respect, the consequences of that sin were muted in the Theotokos as a result of her being so great a Temple of the Holy Spirit.

St John Kronstadt and St Louis de Montfort and other Eastern and Western Saints joined in one voice to call the Most Holy Theotokos: Daughter of God the FAther, Mother of God the Son, Spouse of God the Holy Spirit.

And there was that poet who wrote: What honour should to that Woman be done, who had God for Father, Spouse and Son?

Alex

I agree completely! As the angelic doctor, Blessed Duns Scotus said: Potuit, decuit, ergo fecit (it was possible, it was fitting, therefore it was accomplished)...and this may indeed be.

In His Holy Name,
+Fr. Gregory

Bless, Father Gregory,

Whenever you write, I feel this tingling sensation all over . . .

It feels so deliciously wonderful, I hope it's not sinful!!

Can Orthodox Christians refer to Catholic saints, such as Blessed Duns Scotus, with their saint-titles? You obviously do, but you are wonderful.

I'm talking about other Orthodox Christians!

Alex

Dear Alex, I don't know about what most Orthodox Christians do or can do...I've sort'a given up trying to figure that out, but I certainly don't have a problem with it. Since Catholic Saints lived within the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of the West, the Pope...it seems logical that it is within THAT body of believers that a person must and is added to the Canon of the Saints. We who live outside of that communion should be respectful and accept THAT decision to add them to the canon and can privately remember them and have devotion to them...in the same way that a Catholic might have devotion to St. John of Shanghai & San Francisco...or any Saint that we have added to the Canon of Saints.

As an old priest taught me many years ago: "Wherever there is kindness and charity---there the 'finger of God' is at work!"

In His great love for us,
+Fr. Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!

Bless, Father Gregory,

I don't know how holy my prayers are, but you have them!

For me, the Divine Incarnation becomes all the more real because of the Most Holy Mother of God.

I think she really brings home the awesome truth that God became Man in Christ.

The deuterocanonical books of the New Testament (some say 'apocryphal') relate how the Theotokos would hold her Baby and touch Him to people in trouble or in pain to heal them.

So many did she heal through His touch that she always went around holding Him on her arms, as she never knew who she would come across needing to be touched by Him.

And this is the icon of the Theotokos holding the Child Jesus - she is not only depicted as any mother would be with her Child, but, more importantly perhaps, as a Minister of Christ, holding the Divine Child up to us so that we might be touched by Him!

(Isn't that wonderful? )

Alex

The above quotes "from Tradition" are from the non-canonical books excluded from being read in our churches. Many of those traditions continued by finding a home in our hymnography, iconography, and feastdays.

Look at Mary seated at the Annunciation; she is holding a spindle for the True Purple (per the Proto-Gospel of James). Jesus is raising up Adam and Eve in the Paschal icon (per the Gospel of Nicodemus). And how about Mary's nativity and Presentation? What about Christ's Descent into Hades during Jerusalem Matins (Gospel of Nicodemus)? Our Resurrection troparia and kontakia is 50% canonical, 50% non-canonical.

Still, such non-canonical texts were not accepted in our canon or to be read in our temples even though our hymnography, iconography, and feastdays abound with references to them. But why were they rejected?

Mary, the Theotokos, is NOT God.

That she knew she was to prepare to be the Ever-Virgin at such a young age is interesting. We can say many things about Mary, her purity of life, her ever-virgin-ness, her role in the economy of salvation, how she plays a special role among the saints in bringing people to God.

Joe

Fr. Gregory,

Thanks for quoting from The Orthodox Veneration of the Most Holy Mother of God. i own that book, but it has been a bit since i've read it - and now i want to again! If anyone has not read it, i heartily recommend it.

Yours,
the_grip

Dear Cantor Joseph,

With all due respect, no one here or in the texts quoted ever said that Mary was God.

That is coming from you alone. So please stop it!

Secondly, the non-canonical or deuterocanonicals of the New Testament were certainly not included in the canon of scripture, but, as you yourself have said, this didn't prevent the Church from continuing their use in the liturgy.

The liturgical services to St Andrew, St John the Theologian and St Joseph the Betrothed et al. - they are all inspired by the non-canonical books (which are NOT the same as the heretical, often gnostic books that were in circulation at the same time and which were condemned by the Church).

As a matter of fact, there are a number of references in the New Testament that clearly refer to the unwritten traditions that belong to the Old Testament such as the "Seat of Moses" the reference to the burying of the body of Moses by St Michael and also the reference to Nathaniel in the first chapter of John's Gospel.

The Gospel of John explains the issue of Nathaniel under the sycamore tree no further than what is written there.

Perhaps, just perhaps, this is because the non-canonical Gospel of Nicodemus (I believe it was that Gospel - and it is perfectly orthodox) relates the story of how Nathaniel, as a child, was very ill and his mother met the Mother of Christ who directed her to place her child on Christ's bed-clothes under a sycamore tree - which act healed Nathaniel.

When Christ referred to the sycamore tree, Nathaniel knew that it was Christ Himself who was the wonder-working Child whose mere touch of His clothing had healed him, which is why he exalted Christ in the Gospel of John.

In fact, Sir, the Book of Revelation, as I understand it, is NOT appointed to be read in our Eastern Church. It is read as part of the rule of scripture privately. The fact that a scripture is in the canon does NOT necessarily mean that it can be read in Church.

And, also, the fact is that the Gospel of Nicodemus and a number of other non-canonical or "New Testament deuterocanonical" books WERE in fact locally read and maintained as part of the biblical canon by churches for years.

The Letter of First Clement is such an example. The Ethiopian Church, to this day, includes the 8 books of the Apostolic Constitutions in its New Testament and includes a number of other deuterocanonical books in its "longer" version of BOTH Old and New Testaments, as do the Assyrians (whose official New Testament has 22 books only).

Thus, the Book of Enoch and that of Jubilees figures in the Alexandrian canon.

The Irish Celts, for years, had the Shepherd of Hermas as part of their New Testament.

Apart from that, these books were read widely by Christians for their edification value.

Why were they excluded? Perhaps to maintain the canon of the New Testament as an essential "core" of writings communicating the message of Christ's Good News. That doesn't mean that the deuterocanonicals, those not condemned as heresy, could not be read by the faithful and by the Fathers. They were and can be.

As late as the 19th century, Anglicans in England developed a veneration for the "Correspondence of Christ and Abgarus" that are honoured so highly by the Armenian Church.

Anglicans kept a copy of this deuterocanonical "book" of three letters in frames alongside pictures of the Veil of Veronica.

And they actually petitioned the Archbishop of Canterbury to move to include these letters in the official canon of the New Testament.

Finally, even though the New Testament deuterocanonicals were not included in the Canon, they ARE read in our Churches via our liturgical services.

In addition, the Seven Ecumenical Councils and their canons are not included in the Canon of Scripture - yet, we assent to them with the same assent of Divine faith, do we not?

And, once again, the Mother of God is NOT God.

I think of her as being simply "divine." But not in the sense of actually being God.

In fact, in the history of Christianity, there was only one small heretical movement that considered her to be God - one alone, and that one was condemned by the Church.

I'm having a lot of trouble understanding where you are coming from.

I know, I know, Ohio . . .

Alex

Dear Alex,

The title of the thread, "No sinner can be saved except through the Virgin's help ...," is what led me to state that, "Mary is not God."

Are we saved by Jesus Christ or Mary here? I understand about intercession and the Mary as Mediatrix. But the original statement above BY ITSELF is troubling. It can be misleading if only taken alone. It seems to indicate that we cannot have access to the salvific works of Jesus Christ.

I believe it was Yves Congar in his book, "I Believe in the Holy Spirit," who demonstrated how some Catholic Christians replaced much of the Holy Spirit's role with either Mary or the Pope. Even liturgical hymns had the words "Holy Spirit" replaced with "Pope"! It was not only a matter of assigning a plethora of new roles to Mary, the Theotokos, but un-assigning roles that traditionally belonged to the Holy Spirit. [cf. "I Believe in the Holy Spirit," Volume I, Part II, Chapter 9, "Additional Note: Forgetting the Holy Spirit" and "Substitutes for the Holy Spirit," The Eucharist, The Pope, The Virgin Mary.]

Sadly enough, the Holy Spirit is usually the first to go.

Joe

I kind of have to agree with you here. I would never take anything away from the Mother of God, but some of the Mary-devotees I have met go to extremes. I have heard some say Mary is present at every altar where Mass is said. I don't believe that. I have also heard some say that Mary is busy pulling the people her son wouldn't let in the main gate of heaven, into the back door. I don't believe that either. I think Mary would be among the first to oppose these kinds of excess. You are right, she is not God, and doesn't have the powers of God. She's still pretty special, though, and I am grateful for her intercession.