www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Recited English Ukrainian Divine Liturgy

Well I did it again. I attended the local Ukrainian Church for the English Divine Liturgy.

Sort of a long story as to why I went again and it doesn't really have much to do with this post so I will just say that I went.

The Liturgy was mostly recited which I find very sad but some (very little) was sung.

What I found interesting and why I am putting up this post is this....

The Eucharistic prayer was out loud....

I thought this was something we Ruthenians were going to start doing.

I will also add, the deacon at this parish, archdeacon Igor, was the patriarch's deacon for 4 years. He is from the western Ukrain and said that up until 1900 they called themselves ruthenians.


David, the Byzantine Catholic

"Every evil screams only one message: 'I am good.'" Fr Alexander Schmemann

Advice: organize a small choir and offer to sing - using nice,simple music that is unlikely to intimidate anyone.
Incognitus

It's sad to see that a UGCC church has been reduced to a non-chanted English only liturgy. This parish must be in a small town with an elderly community who have seen their children move out and no new immigrants arrive.

Once you have formed the small choir, start slipping in a few Carpathian-Rus Greek Catholic melodies just to see if anybody notices. They will, and they will be delighted.

Hritzko

Evidently it is quite common for the Ukrainian Catholics in North America to recite the Divine Liturgy in English whereas they chant it in Ukrainian (or in Church Slavonic in a few placed). Since the Galicians are from a different culture and chant style than the Carpatho-Rusyns, and since they were not acculturated rapidly as were the ones from Transcarpathia, there has not yet, to my knowledge, developed a comprehensive and widely accepted style in English.

Yes, all the "Little Russians" were commonly called Ruthenians, especially by Rome. Ukrainian nationalism developed well and so the term "Ukrainian" replaced the term Ruthenian for them. However the Lemki, the Rusyns of Slovakia, and those now in the corner of Ukraine (Zakarpattia) had lived for centuries in small villages, their identity being religious when defined at all. They were under Hungarian, Slovak, Czech, Polish, rule.

Let's hope that with English being used more widely in the Ukrainian churches in North Amercia the leaders will develop and promote a good style of chant, produce the necessary books, etc. -- especially since latinizations are supposed to be weeded out, and the authentic Byzantine tradition is the sung liturgy.

Porter (actual name)

I have regularly attended divine liturgies at Ukrainian Greek Catholic Churches my entire life, including in Canada, the United States, France, England, Germany, Italy, and Ukraine. Believe it or not, I have never heard the divine liturgy in any other language than Ukrainian. I have been to weddings where the vows have been in English or French, but no more than that.

Am I the only one ?

Hritzko

It could be.

There is a Ukrainian Catholic parish in my area (notorious for it's architecture) that has an all English liturgy as the last one on Sunday. I have been there four times hoping to see an improvement. The liturgy is almost indescribable.

It is totally recited except for a few parts that I cannot follow because I am not used to the translation. It is less than 1 hour but it seems longer than any other liturgy.

It isn't well attended like the liturgy in Ukrainian, one could sit anywhere. The only thing they sing well is God Bless America right at the end. I was thinking it was a unique case, now I am not so sure.

We have.

No you guys misunderstand me.

There is already a choir, they are awesome, but sing the parts that are sung, which is very little.

They have 4 Divine Liturgies. A recited English Liturgy on Saturday evening (the Vigil), one recited English Liturgy on Sunday, and two sung/chanted Ukrainian Liturgies on Sunday.

We have a large immigrant community that they draw from.

I will add that the Melkite parish I am attending is doing a joint lecture series with the Ukrainian parish. When a couple of the members from there found out that I am slavic but attend the Melkite praish they seemed confused (I would say offended but that is too strong word).


David, the Byzantine Catholic

"Every evil screams only one message: 'I am good.'" Fr Alexander Schmemann

We have as well

Ah, yes! The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Space Program. I know the place well.

Seriously, my humble experience is that many of our parishes have a recited English DL. These parishes tend to be more Latinized than some others. Is there a connection - who knows?

Some add one in Ukrainian during the summer months for the sake of speed.

Yours,

hal

This has been boggling my mind since I attended my first Ukrainian liturgy 15 years ago. The recited liturgy feels like a Roman mass with Divine Liturgy words. No altar boys, no incense.

However, I finally recently attended a liturgy at St. Josaphat cathedral that was in Ukrainian. This was more like it. Choir, everything chanted/sung, altar boys, incense, et al. Kind of like what I grew up with in the Ruthenian diocese. The melodies they use are very nice also. Similar to Ruthenian but you know you are in a Ukrainian church.

Dear Etnick:

Bishop Robert has become quite the "Easternizer", and his Cathederal parish does indeed show this. They even omit the "filloque."

Yours,

hal

My apologies to David - if you are attending the Melkite parish by all means continue, and take the trouble to learn the Byzantine chant. It's not easy, but it is quite rewarding,
Incognitus

Recited/spoken Divine Liturgy? No way should this be allowed in a parish church but having been in the Army in places like Vietnam maybe reciting the Liturgy could be the best or most pratical course of action as an "exception to policy." No choir, no Pani, worshippers none of who have the same ethnic background and who probably have no singing ability amyway. I know there is an OCA army reservist chaplain in Iraq who does not seem to have any faithful to serve.

Dear Hritzko - vows at a wedding? Tsk, tsk!
Incognitus