www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Biritual couples... is it tough to run a biritual family?

Glory to Jesus Christ! As many of you are aware, I've been giving serious thought to transfering to the Ruthenian church from the Latin church. I intend to keep my job as an organist at a Latin parish since God has graced me with the gift of being able to play the instrument... so I will probably be attending both a Latin and Eastern parish on the same day. My girlfriend and I have not spoken at length about this since we do not wish to be married until we're out of grad school (or at least halfway though... lol), but she has said that she will strongly object to having the children raised in an Eastern church.

She is fearful that her Latin customs and theological training will have no effect on the children, who might grow to regard her treasured pictures of the Sacred and Immaculate Hearts as repulsive (since the rules of iconography don't allow the depiction of internal organs, for example). The children will be expected to attend Liturgy with me, and she has confessed that she would not regularly go. She feels that she is called to remain a Latin Catholic and would not transfer to another ritual church even if I did.

Peronally, I don't think there's any danger of her Latin church heritage being superceded by my potential Ruthenian beliefs. Afterall, I will undoubtedly be playing the organ/directing choirs for several Latin Masses per week. And someday, God willing, I will be competent enough to direct a first-rate Ruthenian choir (I'm in love with the choral music from the Russian/Ukrainian traditions but I don't know much about Carpatho-Rusyn chant yet)... Every time I bring up a move toward the East my girlfriend becomes quite noticeably nervous.

So, I have a question for all you biritual couples out there... am I just being too optimistic? Our children would learn what it means to be part of the Catholic Church and see it firsthand. They can go to Mass with us as well as Divine Liturgy. I just wish she'd go... I cannot run from God's will. If I am meant to be an Eastern Catholic, then someday I will be. But perhaps her reaction is God's way of saying "Stay a Latin...don't give up the harmonious relationship you already have." I just don't know...

Hi, 'Nerd!

Hey!! I recognize you from the "other" board... y'know, the one with the President who doesn't seem to think that Eastern theology and tradition represent an appropriate Catholic Answer... (no matter - I'm still goin' back!)

But I digress...

My wife and I are a very happy bi-ritual couple, even now, 29+ years and three kids later! She loves her Roman Catholicism, and I'm certainly good with that - you gotta be able to put the emphasis on the word "Catholicism," not the "Roman" or the "Byzantine" part! One of the keys to our success was the fact that we were mutually introduced to each others' rite long before we were married. As a child, I had a lot of exposure to both rites (I am, in fact, the product of a bi-ritual marriage myself - RC mother, BC father). I introduced my now-wife to the Byzantine Church while we were still dating. She obviously found it "strange" at first, but is now just as comfortable as a cradle BC, even to the point of being able to rattle off many of our Slavonic terms and greetings!

We were married in a Roman Catholic ceremony - this required a written dispensation from my BC bishop that included the condition that any children from our union be baptized and chrismated in the Byzantine Church. This was, in fact, the case with all three of our children, who are "officially" Byzantine, as am I.

For many years we split both our worship and financial affiliation between both Churches. This can be a bit tough on the pocketbook, but it can be done. Today, due to geographic constraints, most of our participation and financial support is at a wonderful RC parish in which we are currently registered and very active, with trips to the closest BC Church becoming all-too-rare "special events" for us.

As I said, our children were all baptized and chrismated in the Byzantine Church. All three, however, recieved their First Communion in the Roman Church, as well as their formal CCD training. The "problems" (and that's really too strong a word) with this arrangement were twofold:

1. My two boys apparently inherited their stubborn streak from me and always insisted on making the Sign of the Cross right-to-left, dispite the protests of their CCD teachers!

2. Confirmation took a bit of explaining on my part to the RC CCD teachers. As a Sacrament of Initiation, Confirmation/Chrismation can only be administered once. My two oldest participated fully in their CCD class' confirmation exercises and preparation activities, even participating in the ceremony itself - I did, however, need to explain to the confirming bishop ahead of time that they were Eastern Catholic and had been chrismated at their baptism. He gave them a special blessing instead as they approached (our youngest has yet to go through this). It really turned out very nice and remains a memorable event in their lives.

My "side" of the family has always had deep Eastern Catholic roots - My wife's "side" are all loyal Roman Catholics. Even though she herself understands Eastern Catholicism, her family is still a bit in the dark. I know they "know" we are Catholic, but I get the feeling that they're reeeeeally not too sure "how Catholic" we are! :rolleyes: Nothing said, mind you, but you can sometimes see it in their faces. For example, you could hear an audiable "gasp" as Father raised our first-born above his head to present him at the altar during his baptism (they were "prepped" for this by the time the second and third baptisms came around!).

My advice? First and foremost, try to introduce her to the Eastern Church NOW! Don't wait until your future family arrangement becomes an either/or situation. And if it turns out that you ultimately do not marry this girl, well, she'll be all the richer a person because of your efforts! Remember, too, that as a Catholic, you are free to worship and partake of the Holy Mysteries in any Catholic Church. You need not "formally" transfer Churches. The riches of the Eastern Churches are there, just waiting for any Catholic to freely experience them! Embracing the East does not necessarily mean forfeiting the West. Rather, embrace "Catholicism" in all its many "flavors." Works for my family!

a pilgrim

Hi Cathnerd,
I went through a similar situation with my husband being an EC and I a Presbyterian. I have since converted to EC. I too was afraid of his church. Soooo very different from my upbringing. We discussed the idea of childern and religion before we were married. I talked with his priest and voiced my concerns that my children would be confused why we went to different services. He asked that I give the EC church a chance. I continued to attend the Presbyterian church and at times also the Divine Liturgy. I loved the traditions that the EC church was grounded in but was afraid that I would lose my family religious traditions if I converted. It was a slow process for me.(7 years) I finally realized that the EC church is where I belonged but I still have respect for the church that I was raised in. I think that Pilgrim is right. Introduce her to the EC church and to the priest now. Talk about the issues that you are facing. It is possible for her to remain RC and you to move to EC and be very happy. She also may see the beauty in the EC church and decide to join you. You need to follow the path that God is setting forth for you. God Bless you and your journey to him. Tari

Nerd,

Just a couple of comments. I think that, in some respects, you and she are anticipating or creating problems that might not come to be .

You mention her fear that pictures of the Sacred Heart might be repulsive to your children, as the rules of iconography preclude the depiction of internal organs. Quite honestly, I think a lot of ECs are blissfully unaware of the rules of iconography (I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't learn the rules, I just suspect that many don't); so, the issue of the attractiveness/ repulsiveness of the holy pictures might never be an issue .

You also say that the children would "be expected" to attend Divine Liturgy with you. As much as I believe the Divine Liturgy to be the most beautiful and spiritual expression of worship, it's not as if the two of you are from different religions - you are considering being members of two different Churches within the same religion. I think a measure of compromise here is in order - alternating weeks in the two temples or attending both; it is done, believe me (can one worship too much or too often? ).

Besides our friends who have posted above, I know there are others here who successfully worship in two different but, as they seem to consider it, complementary environments. For instance, my friend Ghazar is an Armenian Apostolic; his wife and children are Melkite Catholics. I'll not presume to speak for him, but everything I've seen Bill post on the subject speaks with love of both Churches.

My prayers that, if this relationship is meant to be, that the two of you will be able to find a happy medium that respects each of your religious convictions.

Many years,

Neil

Hi CatholicNerd,

As you know my husband and I have always been Roman Catholics but now both of us agreed to and are attending a Byzantine Catholic church and we are most welcome there. We have not officially switched rites, but we, like them, are Catholics. I think 'time' and 'exposure' are keys for you. If your girlfriend will be open to attending/visiting the Byzantine church she may gradually grow to love the Byzantine rite as you seem to be doing. And Neil (Irish Melkite) is right - you may be anticipating problems which could never arise.

As for directing a Ruthenian choir there really isn't a choir as such or a choir director and no organ music -- at least not in the Byzantine Ruthenian churches I have attended. A cantor(can't remember the right word for one in the Byzantine rite - help guys!) leads the worship but only as part of the group and not directing like a choir director. All the people sing and enter into the worship, in other words >> the entire congregation is part of the worship. I am sure you probably have a fine voice,and eventually you would be able to work your way into being a cantor - God so willing and you are invited to do so.

There are some difference in emphasis in theological expressions between the East and West as well. I find that we have found something very fulfilling and comforting in the differences in emphasis, but you both would have to explore that for yourselves as we have been doing.

A good place to do so is right here. I am still fairly new myself and have found folks here very helpful, especially some who have been posting for quite a long time as well as the administrators and people who answer when you email "Contact us." on www.byzcath.org which is the home URL of this forum. Also anyone who I talk to at our church is willing to help or refer me. It goes with the territory.

What I will do for you and your girlfriend is simply pray for both of you that God give you grace and strength during this time of anticipation in your lives. The wonderful thing is that you both are Christian Catholics and seems you are prayerfully seeking God's will. Glory to God for that!


In the Names of Jesus and Mary,


Mary Jo>who is an incurable romantic about "love" finding a way...

Mary Jo - have a look at Sub deacon Randy's handle - DIAK

That's the word you wanted These terms come in time - I promise you - it was ages before I realised what it meant

Lopsided Anhelyna

Thanks Anhelyna,

I knew just the right 'guy' would help me with that one. My generation calls everyone 'guys' even the gals. It is catching on again though cause so often when we eat out the waiter or waitress says, "What will you guys have?" Anyway, just wondering if you or someone here knows whether DIAK is also the term for a woman leading the praise. We had a woman leading worship in the Byzantine (Ruthenian) church we attended in Spokane, who was very good, and I think they called her another name starting with a C and sounded like Cantorka - something like that. At our church here it is a man and he is really good at leading worship and chants the tones so beautifully.

Blessings!

Mary Jo

Glory to Jesus Christ! I think that she and I are a bit closer to finding that 'happy medium' now than we were a few weeks ago. It hit us that if we truly love each other as much as we profess to than this really shouldn't be an issue. Afterall, Catholic is Catholic. And it came out that her main fears were that her parents would not be able to fully understand or appreciate my Eastern Catholicism and that our children would face a fair amount of discrimination and pressure to Latinize if we regularly took them to the Latin parish. We agreed that the thing about her parents is largely irrelevant (though I think she's still really nervous about it), and we've agreed to deal with problems our kids might face as they come. I certainly hope that there won't be any...

Mary Jo,

I'll probably get my head in my hands for this - but let's see if I can expand on what I said with what I have also absorbed.

Diak -*male* Cantor , minor clergy [ using a latin term there ] . As I understand it originally a paid profession - and they were very well respected. This is not surprising when you consider that enormoous amount that they have to know to be able to do the job - not just the 8 Tones but all the other things as well . Have you ever watched a Cantor shuffling books during a Service ? I was stunned last year when I was at Vigil in a ROCOR Church and saw the chanter there using 2 stands and several books .

From this you will understand that there is obviously a difference between a Diak and a chanter - though the Church could not really exist without either.

As to the term you heard -- well - sorry not a clue - remember I am the Latin who gets to Divine Liturgy on an all too few occasions each year and wishes there could be many more of them The last time was in November - and oh how I have missed it.

Anhelyna

Anhelyna,

Thanks for what you did post. I don't think we have a Diak in our parish. Only have 100 people on a crowded Sunday.

It is 100 miles RT to our nearest Byzantine Church so only making it there on holidays and once or twice a month. Rest of the time we go to the RC church but tis also a--ways. 44 miles RT. No Catholic churches at all out here in the woods. So, I do know what you mean and one of the reasons I am beginning to appreciate the interaction on the forum more and more.

Blessings from one grandmother to another..

Mary Jo

Anhelyna, wonderful, chudovo, excellent response. Yes, the diak was a cantor but much more than that. He was often one of the few literate people in the village, and was a teacher in addition to being the cantor.

He was also often quite well read on the liturgical traditions and customs and someone even the priests went to for guidance with the services.

He was the constant companion of the priest for sick calls, funerals, house blessings, grave blessings, seasonal blessings [water at Yordan and Maccabees, fruit at Transfiguration, flowers at Dormition, etc.], livestock blessings, etc. etc.

And since the village priest was also usually a married family man, the diak may also have shared much of the catechesis and other educational duties with the priest, again because of his ability to read and his familiarity with the faith.

Anhelyna, that's why diaks think those Greek-style cantor's stands with the rotating tops and four sides are sooo cool, you can stick a bunch of books on them and quick swing around to another side for more books...

Thanks for the undeserved praise there Diak - just shows how much you folk have taught me in the past

Actually I know that the Reader is/was one stage up from the Diak in the order of Clergy - but I can't help feeling that the Diak has the more difficult job - so-to-speak. I certainly take my hat off to all who chant as they shuffle the books around and have quite a job preparing each service .

As you say Yeah - they are indeed - wonderful - my eyes nearly popped out of my head when I saw one last year - beautiful to look at and oh soooooooooooooo practical. Every Church should have one -- Ilya - rallying call