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I am in a very bad situation right now. I have recently moved and there is no Byzantine Catholic parish. There is a Roman one, but the abuses are so scandelous to me that I cannot in conscience attend so I have been attending the local Episcopal Church and recieving Communion. What does the Church law say about my situation. The Episcopal church has such reverent worship and I have even thought about becoming Episcopalian, but I am still struggling deeply. I will be here for a long time because of work. I need some guidance and help. I have my ikon corner, but it is so hard to do it all alone. Please help me. My parish in Anchorage seems so dis-interested; all they send me is offering envelopes - they could care less that I am alone. I feel so alone as a Byzantine Catholic here.

Thank you all.

Dear Robert,

I'm sorry you're in the situation you are in now.

One of the first things that I'd tell you is that I think that since Catholics don't recognise the Orders of Protestants, your own Church probably would frown on you receiving Communion at an Episcopal Church. How you go about reconciling that situation is up to you, your priest, and God...I know I would want to receive Communion too, but I don't know if I would do so.

The abuses are scandalous, sure. I believe it. I've seen it myself, though not in Alaska. One thing I always try to remember, though, is that unless the abuses are so horrible that they mess around with the integrity of the Sacrifice, then sure, it's bad, but the Liturgy is still the Liturgy, and Communion is Communion. The Episcopal church may have better services and more reverent services, but there is something to be said for valid sacraments.

As for what you can do at home, if I remember correctly, Byzantine Catholics can "fulfil" their "obligations" by praying the Divine Office at home...that might be something you should consider, while also going to Mass, however hard that may be in light of the abuses, to receive the sacraments.

I'm sorry that your church seems uninterested in your plight. That really is a shame. I know how that is.

Are there not any Orthodox churches around where you live?

Keep well, and good luck!

Robert, please don't become an Episcopalian! It's not the solution. I know because I was one. As a matter of fact, my dad was an Episcopal minister. Now I'm a Latin rite Catholic and even though my parish doesn't have any egregious abuses, there's still not the reverence and beauty of the Anglican liturgy. But I wouldn't go back. For one thing, the Anglican sacraments are not valid. And the Episcopal Church is fast abandoning historical Christianity. Sure there are great parishes, like the one you found, and fine Christian people. But there are women priests and bishops, bishops and priests who deny the divinity of Christ and the virgin birth, voting in General Convention to allow active practicing homosexuals in the priesthood, the Episcopal Church is officially "prochoice" on abortion.

You don't say where you are but would you be able or willing to drive a ways to get to a decent Liturgy? How about moving even if it involves a job change? I will pray for you, but don't become an Episcopalian. It would truly be going from the "frying pan to the fire."
:rolleyes:

I would suggest a book called "A Guide for the Domestic Church." I believe there are several places online you can find it. When I was in Wichita, KS and there wasn't a mission (although there is now) books like this one really helped. I went to a Roman Catholic parish and whatever scandals they had were their business. I also attended vespers at an Antiochean Orthodox church nearby whenever I could. I read books and visited Byzantine Catholic and Orthodox web sites at home. I had an icon corner, etc.

Don't feel alone. There must be thousands of Byzantine Catholics in the U.S. who don't live near parishes.

Good luck. My family will keep you in our prayers.

Just curious: what kind of "abuses"?

If I move to Detroit and let's say... don't find a Roman Catholic Church with a liturgy I approve of... I'm thinking I might go worship with the Buddhist. Being I might get the smell of incense I want and the whole flowery works.

Robert your mere presence (choice over the Latin Church) at the Episcople Church is the striking abuse. Not My Roman Catholic Church. A Mormon Church could dress it's self quite similar to a Byzantine "Catholic" Church, but it's theology is still Mormon, it's hierarchy are still renegade, and in the end it's all a "Catholic" illusion.

But you are free to court the Ottomans if you want. We blasted Romans will make due on our own. Your "Catholic" fidelity is suspect whence you chose to be with the Episcople bunch instead of with the *Catholics* at the sacrifice of the Mass. Now granted perhaps my questioning someones Catholic loyalty maybe some what the pot calling the kettle black. I've got my issues right now with the Church, I'll work them out or go the other way. But it vexs me with Catholics that are so supposedly wanting for Christ and His Church, so supposedly loyal, but will court the first thing coming with a skirt when they don't have a bowl of incense burning, and good ridence to Apostolic succession.

Sorry if I'm a bit harsh. But you Eastern Rite Catholics on this board can't get enough of worrying about "Latinization" and think of yourselves as so superior in being orthodox (right teaching) Catholics, but the irony can't go with out notice as to how you can - as Catholic as you are - do the dance with the renegade and non-Apostolic and reject the Sacrifice of the Mass as non-important and theologicaly trivial.

Whatever

Dear Robert,

Off hand, I'd say you are better off with the Roman Church, since even the Episcopal Church has its share of abuses!

If THAT is the only reason why you stay away from the Latin Church, then we should stay away from ALL our Churches since you'll find abusers and abuses in them all.

The U.S. Episcopalians and Catholics are on excellent terms, but . . .

We must not only forgive ourselves and ask for forgiveness for the sins we commit.

We must also learn to forgive the Church and her very human members without passing judgement on them.

We are all sinners standing in need of such forgiveness.

If we cannot do that, then we should not go to any Church at all, leaving our gift at the door, as Christ said, and making peace in our hearts with our brothers.

If you cannot yet forgive, don't attend any Church until you can.

Alex

Robert,

I know what you are going through!

Maximus,

Please, you are a guest on an Eastern Catholic board. It's not nice to come in here and tell Eastern Catholics how they should feel. Perhaps if you had had your traditions stripped away by another Church you might understand the depth of the feelings here. However, there are ways to express your thoughts that are not offensive to others. Please, in the future, try to do so.

Edward, deacon, sinner & moderator

[ 03-04-2002: Message edited by: FrDeaconEd ]

Axios & FrDeaconEd,

If it may seem like it, it's not that I want to beat my chest on this forum for the sake of beating my chest. Yes I do like to get into good arguments but actually not for the sake of just arguing. That I don't enjoy. But I do enjoy argument that makes all involved think, and I enjoy that sort of art that is [expletive deleted], yet not meant to be cruel. But that's just me.

So let me try to explain my feeling here a little better. For the sake of understanding.

While I think at times I fall into some victimized self pity role by maybe... the number of times I bring up my "race", and not even realy being aware of it, which perhaps displaying better character shouldn't come up at all. I will however bring up in this instance because it is related I think, or at least I am certain it being part of my experience shapes my attitude on this matter.

I went to a predominately white high school, it was a Catholic school. Being "bi-racial" and given a number of "racial" realities in the American culture I would, as it is, endure taunts from behind by white kids mocking rappers. Among other not so comfortable stituations. Infact after one after school incedent my younger brother (still in grade school) would pick up the family phone to be told by the other party on the other end - to go back to Africa... you so and so. This was an often repeated thing for about one entire school year. But with the bad there was the good, and the good perhaps outwayed the bad.

Now as for black Americans, how many Catholics of any rite are nationaly recognized for their efforts to encourage better change for black Americans in America? Dr. King is probably the greatest figure venerated and the white Protestant Quakers probably did the most far as abolition efforts are concerned. Yet what should this mean for me as a Catholic or other black Catholics in America? I know some of these abuses many of you speak of go on in predominatly black Catholic parishes - where Protestant traditions such as yelling out Amen! During the Mass happens, the chior positioned behind the alter. But I doubt many of you would support this sort of "ethnic", "racial", cosmoplitan liturgy that some of you can speak of to the point of banter.

For myself I don't support Protestant elements incorporated into the Mass where they can not be reconciled with those things Catholic. And for myself I reconcile myself to the Catholic Church, that being if indeed it is the Church Christ established, and if indeed Christ was the Son og God, then the Catholic Church, my loyalty to her, and to that of the people of God, must come be for my own personal issues and history.

Some of you Easterners could consider being a little more loyal to catholicty you espouse.

I know DavidB is an Easterner and I know in every way he is Catholic. There was another Eastern rite Catholic by the name of Henry I was fortunate to know on the Catholic (Latin Rite) board I use to frequent. Henry was one of you that has a great mind, understood both East and West, and was very honest about the Church from my observation. If him or David where to critique elements of the Latin Church negatively (infact they have) I would not question their loyalty to the Catholic Church (and that includes more then just Rome) for I know their critique as they see it is meant in honesty to better the Catholic Church (again that means more the just Rome and the Pope). In fact I'm certain Henry who was of an Eastern rite and came from a Protestant background was and is more Catholic then myself a cradle Catholic. But for anyone to place a Protestant service above the sacrifice of the Catholic Mass (which I understand it, is the collapse of time, and Christ at Calvary), because it makes them feel warm and fuzzy inside, has their *Catholic* priorities wrong.

I think at times we try to place grand and high flung education and/or liturgical dress above certain undieing Apostolic principles - such as loyalty to Christ and Church, and loyalty to the people of God. Some of our Catholic laity and Bishops could use an injection of two of those well honor principles commonly found in poor working class neighborhoods - [expletive deleted].

[This post was edited by the Administrator to remove offensive language. This participant is asked to follow the Forum guidelines and post with Christian charity and respect or not to post at all.]

[ 03-05-2002: Message edited by: Administrator ]

Dear Maximus,

You raise important points, to be sure.

Martin Luther King is truly a martyr and I personally observe his day by organizing an ecumenical service and by taking the day off. He was of the Black Church tradition and I understand that there is an African-American Catholicism in the U.S. as well.

I am also very close to the great African Ethiopian Orthodox Church and her traditions.

I say this to share what the African experience of Christianity has always meant to me, one of enrichment and joy.

I don't know what you mean in term of loyalty to Catholicism by us Easterners.

Is it to Rome or to the Latin Church?

I know many Easterners who are very loyal to Rome - we've got the martyrs to prove it - and yet would never set foot into a Latin Church.

We've met people on the Latin side who have the same attitude to the East.

So I can see Robert's position, even though I wouldn't agree with it.

By the same token, I have met Latin Catholics who attend Episcopal Churches and receive communion there with the full knowledge of their bishops.

The chasm that you see between the two churches doesn't appear as great as all that if this is the case.

I have Anglican friends up here whose Church has a procession with a statue of Mary through the streets of Toronto in May, pray the Rosary and post a sign on their church door to say they are not Protestant.

This is one of those times when the real internal divisions of the Latin Church come to the fore.

So who is one to believe? The Pope, you might say. Well, there is what the Pope says and how its is implemented locally by the local Church.

Again, there is a divergence of opinion on this matter, and I, for one, am totally confused as to what is the true Latin Church perspective.

Your perspective here is different from what I've consistently heard from other Latin Catholics.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm only saying "Will the real Latin Church perspective" please make itself known!

Alex

Orthodox Catholic,

I enjoy your posts. I don't always see things the same way you do or agree with your position. But I know you always struggle to be a fair man, and deep down you desire the best for the Universal Church (Catholic).

First - what I mean by loyalty does not necasseraly mean Easterners need bow down to the Latin Church, take up our custom, and view everything through our explicit theological discription. Nor do I mean that you Easterners need hang to every word of the Pope or keep your ears open to hear what the Bishops of the Latin Church have to say on every matter. So let me put it this way - You Eastern rite Catholics are already loyal in one sense that you are in communion with the Bishop of Rome (the same can be said for Latin rite Catholics), but Catholicism is much broader then that as I see it, it extends to all Eastern rites and their Bishops and Patriarchs, it extends to the Orthodox not in commuion with the Bishop of Rome. It is in a very great sense that mystical succession of the Apostles. It is the sacraments. It Is In A Very Real Way Mary. It is the Church before the State. And loyalty to Catholicism means loyalty to these things.

OC, as I see it there is no real African-American Catholic Church (at least I don't think there is, but I suppose I could be wrong) And I don't like a number of the things that go on in these Churches, such as the yelling out of Amen which I find unCatholic, undisciplined. Or the sometime tendency of the chior wanting to "jam" over the Eucharist. And I can tell you from the reactions I observed from members of the Ethipoian Catholic rite (I forget the name of the rite. And they by the way are very Catholic, though not in a Latin expression of it per se.) who have recieved permission for them and their families to be members of the Latin Catholic parish, they don't like some of the things that go on either. I personaly think (and this is just my own opinion) that black Americans that convert to the Catholic Church from their Protestant roots, should put their personal issues aside or secondary to *what is Catholic* and immerse themselves in what is Catholic. Not to say black American culture in many ways can't be reconciled with the Catholic Mass or whatever that Catholic culture is. But the Protestant jam sessions and Protestant self involved ego outbursts can be left at the door. It is as if the black converts are the first blacks in America into the Church. I guess we forget New Orleans and the black Church and home to the black Catholic fraternal orginization of the Knights of Peter Clavier.

And no I don't consider the Anglicans Catholic. These people can't even decide on whether Christ was the son of God not to mention there Church begun for nationalistic purposes for the all-glorious England. And perhaps helped to set the world back from the one world government and one world Church the Catholic Church has always sought.

As for everything else, the real Latin Catholic standing up, or as you asked... well I'm a bit arrogant as I in many moments consider myself the harbinger of Catholic truth

Dear Maximus,

O.K., I see where you are coming from.

You have very deep convictions and that is to be both admired and encouraged.

Yes, I don't know exactly what the "African-American" Catholicism is, but I know they actually petitioned Rome for a Latin Patriarchate way back when, just as the Hispanic Catholics did.

The Auriesville Shrine to the North American Martyrs in New York State has a day where this Black Catholic Church rite(s) is celebrated, as is the Hispanic (sub-rite?).

For my part, I love the Ethiopian Geez Rite, that includes both Ethiopians and Eritreans (although their Orthodox Churches have separate Patriarchates now).

It is culturally very African, and provides us with a very real and living link to the Queen of Sheba and Solomon of Israel.

And I have never asked anyone to ever agree with me on anything .

If people don't, I understand.

It takes a while to come to a fuller realization of the truth

And, by the way, there is a beautiful Eastern-style icon of Holy Martin Luther King done by Robert Lentz at Bridge building Icons.

The Catholic Church has pronounced on his martyrdom for human rights and I think we are entitled to venerate him privately.

Harriet Tubman (did New York proclaim March 10th as her day?) is another great Methodist woman of God.

For my part, I am working on some legislation to proclaim "Emancipation Day" a provincial holiday here, or the day in 1825 on which the British Empire abolished slavery.

Ex-slaves to Canada celebrated this day (actually August 1st) and it would be great if it becomes our uniquely Canadian celebration of the victory over slavery.

We celebrate Martinsday in January, Black History month in February and Kwanzaa is quite popular among many Catholic families as well.

God bless,

Alex

I can tell you my experience.

In the city where I live now, there are no Orthodox parishes but a lot of "liberal" catholic parishes. Recently I asked an Orthodox priest what to do and he told me that as an Orthodox believer you're not allowed to receive communion in a different church, but here's nothing wrong if you participate in a Roman mass if it's good for your spiritual needings. I was very curious about the validity of the sacraments of other churches like the Anglican or the RC and I found that the Orthodox recognize the baptism if it's given in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (even without a triple inmersion and in my country the RCC, the GOC, he AOC and some historical protestant churches signed an agreement about that). Chrismations of the RCC or the non-chalcedonians are also accepted (he told me that catholics give that sacrament after they're baptized without knowing that). Ordainations are accepted in most of the cases (when a catholic minister becomes orthodox)because the RCC has a true apostolic succesion.
About the Anglicans, I was told that it's hard to find a true priest because you can't identify who had the apostolic succesion. Now it's easier to know (since they ordain women) that the C of A is not a true church and lost it's tides with the apostolic churches. Their euchaist is not a true eucharist because there's not a single doctrine (accepted by all the episcopalians or anglicans). Some of them believe in the real presence of Christ and some of them follow the protestant doctrine (consubstantation). On the other side the Orthodox, as well as the RCC believe in the doctrine of the "transubtatation".

At least the catholic church (despite it's scandalous liberalism) has true sacraments with true priests and true apostolic succesion.
My priest told me that If I'm not able to attend an Orthodox parish I'm not forced to attend a service in a different church.

I have a Catholic friend who's tridentine (old fashioned but not schismatic) and he goes to the Melkite parish, the Maronite or the Orthodox, when he cannot attend a true mass.