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Again I ask: what are these abuses?

Being Roman Catholic LOL!!!!

Heh, that's what I'm starting to think. I came to this board to learn more about Eastern Catholicism, but I keep finding all this anti-Roman Catholic thought. We're not acting like a very unified religion here, guys.

Orthodox Catholic,

Though we don't want to stray to far off the topic. Let me take this quick opportunity to commend you on your industriousness, regarding your work on the piece of legislation.

Also that was it the Geez Rite! And the people I'm thinking of were in fact from Eritria. Not important here but just for a side note: the Eritreans apperantly have a different view of the late Ethipoian Emporer Hallie Salasie.

And interesting that you mention Harriet Tubman because I mentioned her name in a short document of 4 points of concern I prepared and sent to the Archbishop, and another Bishop and Cardinal in another city. Infact her name I mentioned in the 4th concern I had which focused on the Catholic Mass and culture of black Americans. If your interested I suggested black Churches would be in all catholicity to paint her image on Church walls and ceilings and that beautifying black Catholic Churches artisticly in the best aspects of black American culture would be more in tune to what is Catholic, instead of stripping down the Churches bare and turning the Mass in to some quasi-Protestant revival service.

Remie, I would have no problem recieving the Eucharist in the Divine Liturgy be that Eastern Rite Catholic or Orthodox. I don't care much for most of the Orthodox monastics (their monks), I consider them a bit of back-wood Yahooes! And I suppose since I'm Roman Catholic some of the Orthodox theology just doesn't *jive* with me. But in essence all of the Apostolic Churches are *catholic* to me. And with that I would confess to your Priest and recieve communion from them if need be. But then that's just me.

Actually, the Orthodox Church does not teach Transubstantation. The Catholic Church has also accepted that no meaningful difference exists between Transubtation and Consubstantation. See Official Catholic-Lutheran Dialogue and offical Anglican-Catholic Dialogue.

Axios

Dear Robert:

If you can't find a Byzantine Church or a Roman Catholic Church you feel comfortable in, try to find a nice Orthodox Church.

Don't go Episcopalian, you will only be fooling yourself, there are historic problems with the legitimacy of their orders and they have of late turned a blind eye to a number of heresies.

Just my opinions.


defreitas

Dear Maximus,

Thank you for your insights and I commend you for your forward thinking!

The Ethiopian Church, of course, depicts Christ as an African, as it should.

The so-called Black Madonnas, including the Black Madonna of Czestochowa of Poland, were actually an iconographic genre that was imported to Europe from Africa way back when.

The blackness of the Mother and Child was actually symbolic of being the "Mother of Light" since anything we put up against the sun turns dark.

After suffering their defeat at Akkar, the Templars went to Ethiopia for a while where they served the Emperor St Lalibela. It was there that they developed their devotion to the Queen of Sheba, St Makeda and saw the Black Madonnas of Africa that they brought with them to Europe.

Personally, I find the image of the Black Madonnas to be very spiritually meaningful in terms of the Light theology of the Eastern Church.

I pray that you continue in your work in the Church and that your vision comes to complete fruition.

Alex

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Maximus:
[QB]Orthodox Catholic,

" I don't care much for most of the Orthodox monastics (their monks), I consider them a bit of back-wood Yahooes!"

The thing speaks for itself.

But it speaks a positive word for the Orthodox.

We love our "yahoo" monks and love, with fervor, that which separates us from the West and preserves us from becoming what western Christianity has, unfortunately, become.

Thanks for the reminder, Maximus.

ER

Dear Ephraim,

Yes, as I said on the thread re: culture, the sense of "otherliness" of our Eastern Monastics is what is, at the same time, their attraction for the West.

I've come across so many converts of different western traditions who were drawn to the Eastern Churches precisely because of their being so "not mainstream."

And everything about a Greek Monk's dress speaks about Christ, the ascetical life of struggle and heaven.

Alex

I can quite understand how monks can be disturbing.

Bless me a sinner, Father in Christ, Elias!

Doesn't it say in the Psalms, "Come, let us oppress the righteous man?"

And doesn't this apply, first and foremost, to the "monachos" the person who lives alone with God, and therefore is someone who is always in the very best of company?

I was in a monastery once for a retreat. I think my heart is still there and I wear a scapular to link myself to that way of life as much as possible.

What peace, what union with God!

How blessed you are, Father Elias!

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex

To the participants of this thread:

For Robert, Remie and everyone:

There has been quite a bit of complaints in this thread about abuses in the Roman Catholic Church. In the original post Robert indicated that the abuses were so scandalous to him that he could not in good conscience attend the Roman Catholic liturgy. I ask him to please provide specific examples of these abuses so that all of us can understand what he is speaking to and maybe attempt to help him. There are certainly abuses in the Roman Catholic Church (as there are in all Churches). It is only fair to the Roman Catholic Church and to our Roman Catholic participants that accusations of abuse be well defined. Please provide definitions before continuing this discussion


For Maximus,

You seem to be defining Catholicism as Latin Catholicism and are using your own preferences within Latin Catholicism as the measuring stick of other Catholics and even of non-Catholics.

Your comments are much too harsh and disrespectful. Your use of near foul language is unacceptable. If you are here only to provoke arguments then please discontinue posting.

Administrator

Administrator,

Perhaps you can point out exactly were I implied Catholicism to be Latin Catholicism. Or were I used Latin Catholicism to be the measuring stick for Catholicism? If you are refering to my comment about Byzantine Catholics being in union with Rome - then my response to you (following your logic) is that the mere fact that Byzantine Catholics choose to be in union with Rome not Constantinople is implicit that Byzantine Catholics use the Latin Catholic Pope and his Church as a measuring stick for Catholicism. I've only been on this earth 30 years and I personaly know only one Bishop and have never met any Pope - how long has Byzantine Catholicism been in union with Rome?

If on the other hand your trouble is with my comments geared toward if not out right saying that Catholics (that is of the entire universal Church Orthodox included) are to place the sacrifice of the Mass (or the sacrifice of the Divine Liturgy) above that of Protestant *preach* services, then I fail to see *other catholic* veiw there could be. As I understand it, the Mass is for one purpose in the end, that being the sacrifice. All else is secondary. Are you now trying to tell me that the Eastern Churches don't believe this, saying that it is perfectly ok for a Byzantine catholic to reject a Latin Catholic Mass for a Pentecostal holy gost session if he/she so chooses? If that is the case then yes I guess I do use the Roman Church as the measuring stick, and thankfuly so.

Dear Maximus,

But you yourself said you were being harsh in your post, Friend!

And you seemed to strongly imply that Robert's desire to go Episcopalian meant that he, and all Byzantine Catholics for that matter, have a tendency to be irreverent toward the Sacrifice of the Mass and opt for a Protestant prayer service aka the Episcopal Holy Communion.

That shocked me as an Orthodox Catholic and whatever someone else does or thinks does not reflect on myself or the other Orthodox Catholics on this Forum.

It's not fair to generalize which is why I didn't say anything about what you wrote at the time.

And that was just to show that we are better than your lot . . .

Alex

You are incorrect in this assumption. Read the writings of Pope John Paul II regarding the Eastern Churches (especially Orientale Lumen) and you will see that he puts the Eastern approach to theology and liturgy on an equal footing with the Western approach. The Holy Father has made it clear that we are not to use the Latin Catholic way – as wonderful and correct as it is – as our measuring stick.

I cannot respond to your comments about Protestants since I do not understand what you have written. You might wish to re-state your argument more clearly. Since I have not addressed that issue it is wrong of you to conclude that I am in any suggesting that it is “perfectly ok for a Byzantine catholic to reject a Latin Catholic Mass for a Pentecostal holy gost session if he/she so chooses”. My post was quite clear in that it requested specific information regarding what the posters in this thread consider to be abuse that is so scandalous that they cannot attend the Roman Catholic Mass at their local parish. This information is necessary in order for anyone to form an intelligent and considered opinion on the topics raised in this thread.

Administrator