www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Byzantine in Distress!

Dear Maximus,

Your language of sacrifice is imprecise. Following Trent "those who say that the Mass is not true sacrifice..." is a good idea. But it has become something of a banner.

In Latin Catholic Theology, the Sacrifice of the Mass was always a "relative" sacrifice, compared to the "absolute" sacrifice of Christ on the Cross. That is, it takes its sacrificial meaning and identity from the offering of Christ on his Cross.

To say that the "sacrifice" is the "end" is very hard to Byzantine ears. The sacrifice is more the means to the end. As a means, it is chosen by God. But the end he chooses, is union with man (theosis), accomplished by gift. By this means, the end is that we are reconciled to God, made true sons, know the forgiveness of sins, and become inheritors of eternal life. This is the end, for which the sacrifice was made.

Some reformers denied the sacrificial nature of the Mass. Hence the condemnation of Trent you cite. They saw the Mass as more appropriately a memorial of the Last Supper. But it is not a sufficient exposition of orthodox (or catholic) theology to use only "sacrifice" as a test of the true understanding of the mystery.

Of course, the language of the mysteries as sacrifice is known. Hence Chrysostom: "Have therefore reverence, have reverence before this holy table, of which we all participate, before Christ, who was slain for us, before the sacrifice, which lies on the table." But it is not the main way in which we encounter the mysteries. For an eastern Christian, holy communion is a "Pascha" moment, an encounter with the Risen Lord.

Is it a memorial of the Last Supper, or a participation in the sacrifice of Calvary, or an encounter with the Risen Savior? Yes to all three. Hence the anaphora, "Remembering therefore this precept of slavation and everything that was done for our sake, the Cross, the tomb, the resurrection on the third day, the ascension into heaven, the enthronement at the right hand, the second and glorious coming again, we offer Thee, Thine own of what is Thine own, in all and for the sake of all."

Latin Catholic apologetics, written in reaction to errors of the reformers, were defined and formulated in that context. Such apologetical banners cannot be used against the orthodox and eastern Christians. It does hurt their feelings, and makes them suspect the depth of the Latin Catholics own grasp of the true meaning of the mysteries.
I am delighted to see your passion for the truth, and your defense of the true faith. I encourage you to continue your study this mystery.

Some thoughts offered by a monk, from the back woods!

in Christ,

Elias

Bless me a sinner, Reverend Father Elias!

Your post on the Eucharist took me back to my oral defence of my dissertation.

I used your precise argument to illustrate a point a professor raised.

The professor then insisted I incorporate the point and Alexander Schmemann's work into my writing!

If you are from the back woods, I must be from the mountains .

Alex

Dear Administrator,

If I'm reading your post and those of Maximus wrong, please forgive me. But I think what Max is trying to get at is this: granted that Papal documents and statements affirm the validity and equality of the Eastern approaches to the Western approach (in essence, it is an affirmation of the complete catholicity of Eastern approaches), why do Byzantine and other Eastern Catholics feel that they want to/should be in communion with Rome rather than (the equally catholic) Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, or elsewhere? Basically, why be Eastern Catholic rather than Orthodox? What do you get out of being Catholic that you couldn't get from being Orthodox? What's the benefit? I would very much appreciate hearing answers to these questions...

Dear Catholicos,

Well, I think our Administrator wasn't touching on the subjects you raised, and only asked Maximus to be clear and polite - at the same time, if that were possible . . .

You raise excellent points, just overflowing with pregnant meanings!

But before anyone jumps in, did you want to create a separate thread on it?

It deserves to be taken seriously and addressed copiously.

But I do think you should start another thread on this important subject.

That's just me, though.

Alex

Mor Ephrem,

Your questions are excellent and I encourage you to start a new thread to discuss them. I do not, however, see such questions in Maximus' posts. I was encouraging him and everyone to make sure to post with an extra dose of Christian charity, avoiding harshness and to express their thoughts clearly. I was also asking those who are complaining of abuses within the RCC to be very specific about these abuses and to list them so that we can have an intelligent understanding of their position.

Administrator

SP said: "Again I ask: what are these abuses?"

I don't know but let me guess: altar girls, rock masses, folk music, "liturgical" dancing, public exorcisms...

The good thing is that there are a lot of Roman parishes without these "abuses" and with wonderful Services (you can choose a Tridentine option).

I would like to know if this is true. I have a friend who lives in Canada and he is Orthodox (but ROCOR) and conservative. Once we were talking about Eastern orthodox and Catholic parishes and "latinizations" and if the byzcath churches were loyal to the orthodox byzantine rite, and he told me that in the byzcath parishes of the USA it's common to find a lot of non-eastern items and the same liberalisms that can be found in Roman parishes, and that some byzcath parishes had "rock liturgies", "guitar liturgies" and those things. I just laughed and thought it was unbelievable but I still remember what he said.

Maximus,

I have already cautioned you regarding your phraseology. Now our esteemed Administrator has cautioned you as well.

I ask that you be respectful of others feelings and beliefs here. You are certainly welcome to post, but, as I noted in my first message to you, there are ways to communicate that do not involve injuring others.

Your defense seemed to be that you are Black. Frankly, I don't care about your skin color -- what I care about is how your post here. This board does not see in color.

Finally, in respecting the request of the Administrator, please refrain from posting generalities -- stick with specifics.

Thank you.

Edward, deacon, sinner and moderator

Monk Elias & OC, thank you and I will take your suggestion Monk Elias (by the way you don't seem all that "yahoo" or scary)

Admin., thank you too. Why I don't know, but it seems the best words to say to escape your wrath

Mor, that is exactly, precisely, what I was trying to say. And infact I don't question that the Byzantine Catholic Church is as Catholic as the Roman Church. For I have always thought Byzantine or Orthodox theology would support the position I held. I know a woman that is a cradle Catholic of the Roman Church who goes to soley Protestant services, because she feels bored in a Catholic Mass, and perhaps because this new Protestant Church will confirm her moral right to abortion which she has had two of already (prior to joining this Protestant Church) and which she feels is her moral right. She still professes to be Catholic - perhaps this is the end Monk Elias was speaking of - if jovial feelings of union with God many anything, which according to the Pentecostal does. Now I don't mean to put any words in your mouth Monk Elias but you can see where I'm going with this. Nor do I want to or can I stand in judgement of this woman. But I wouldn't trust her to hide me from the Ottomans let's put it that way. Oh let me also say I consider her still Catholic, but not a good Catholic, or a very loyal Catholic.

I actually thought that my posts implied the exact opposite of what the Administrator charged me of implying. It could be my lack of higher education which fails me when trying to get my point across and structure an argument properly. I don't know.

Dear Maximus,

You are doing great, man!

Sometimes higher education just doesn't help someone who is unteachable.

I'm walking proof of that!

Alex

I am going to ask the question that has been asked many times. WHAT ARE THE ABUSES that are so great that you can not in good conscience attend the RC Mass? If there are abuses then it should be easy for you to post them here.

Remie,

Thank you for your recent post in this thread.

You quoted your friend as saying:

This begins to get to the heart of the matter. I know of no Byzantine Catholic parishes anywhere in the United States that have “rock liturgies”, “guitar liturgies” or “those things”. The closest thing I can think of that really does happen is the use of organs in some Greek Orthodox parishes. People making such accusations need to back it up with evidence.

Regarding “altar girls, rock masses, folk music, "liturgical' dancing, public exorcisms” , I would have to state that RC “rock masses” and “folk music” would fall into the category of culture and tastefulness, not scandalous unless they included a specific blasphemy. I don't like the idea of altar girls but don't necessary think of this as heretical. I would need more information on “"liturgical' dancing” and “public exorcisms” before commenting. Ethiopian Orthodox engage in a sort of liturgical dancing, one that is appropriate to their culture. Such activity in your local RC parish may be distasteful and even wrong but I'm not sure it would be heretical. Either way, those offended by this type of behavior have a responsibility to make their voices known and organize themselves to work with the proper Church authorities to address their concerns.

--

Maximus,

I am sorry that I do not understand your posts but exactly what does your RC-friend-going-to-a-Protestant-Church's plight have to do with us Byzantines? I don't see the connection you are trying to make.

Administrator

Dear Friends,

As for "altar girls," my grandmother told me she was sometimes asked to serve as such for her relatives who were married priests.

She was 17 when she began serving as an altar girl, in cases of "necessity."

She prayed one hour, morning and evening, and attended the Divine Liturgy and Communion EVERY DAY, even while a teen-ager.

She later insisted on marrying a priest so she could give herself to the service of God's people as a Presbytera.

Yes, those Altar Girls can really be something . . .

Alex

FrDeaconEd, I never at any point said I had a right to insult someone or hurt anyones feelings because I am black. But I've been around the block before so I know where your going with this.

So if you have a personal problem with me e-mail me I'll give you my address and we can handle it face to face, mano to mano.


Justin

Orthodox Catholic,

I have not yet disagreed with you but there is a first time for everything. Regarding "Altar Girls" I will have to depart ways with you there. I am against to the idea unless it is an emergency (i.e. war-time situation).

God Bless!

Dear +Ray,

Yes, my grandmother served as an Altar Girl only during the Nazi and Soviet invasions.

She inspired us all with her piety and she taught me to pray.

Fortunately, the Holy Spirit doesn't take gender into consideration!

Alex