www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Byzantine in Distress!

Dear Maximus/Justin,

Calm down, Friend, Fr. Deacon Ed is O.K. and he wouldn't say or even think anything like that.

What he and the Administrator have talked about are things we have all agreed to follow in our discussions here.

I know I often reflect on what I say to see if I haven't offended or gone against the rules.

In case of some doubt, I post anyway, hoping that I haven't.

But if the Administrator and the Moderator would tell me I've given offense, I would take them at their word and obey their directives.

And their directives have helped me spiritually, as well as in terms of developing better civil values . . .

I like to think they go beyond pity for this poor Ukie .

Alex

I don't know but let me guess: altar girls, rock masses, folk music, "liturgical" dancing, public exorcisms...

Why do you see altar girls in Latin Rite Catholic churches to be an abuse?
I personally don't like "rock massses" or the inclusion of folk music into the liturgy, but just because many Catholics favor more traditional music in their masses does not make these things blasphemous.
I have never seen "liturgical dancing" in any Catholic church, and although I don't really understand its purpose, it's hardly an abuse.

I have never even heard of public exorcisms being performed in a Roman Catholic church.

This may be off topic, but just for your information, "liturgical dancing" is only used in the Latin rite in those cultures where dancing can be and is used for worship. There it is licit. But in the West and other places where this is not the case, "liturgical dancing" is most certainly an abuse.

I acknowledge its existence; I'm just saying it's unlikely you would see it in a Western Roman Catholic Church. Also, Remie was calling it an abuse in RC churches.

Maximus,

I'm sorry -- we seem to be talking past each other. I have nothing against you personally. When I said I didn't care if you were black I meant exactly that. Black, white, brown, yellow, red -- makes no difference to me. We are all the children of God. When I fill out something that requires "race" I always write in "human" -- for me that's the only race there is.

What I take exception to is the tone of your posts, the way in which you write that does not lead to communication but to confusion.

Edward, deacon and sinner

The Western Roman Catholic Church of predominately black Americans have and are allowed these liturgical dancers. They will dance in what appears to be an African style of dance carrying bowls of incense. The big book of the gospel will be incensed with the waving of these incense bowls. The dancers are women, wraped in some sort of African cloth that traditionaly wraps around the waste, they are bare foot, and the whole thing is edifying and quite catholic. I have no problem with this, in fact I like it. At the World African festival Mass I served in, not only were the dancers there but also sacred drummers. Alex might be aware of this, but something new like the sacred drummers might be new in America, but has a long tradition in the Geez Rite of the Catholic Church. The drummers represented different groups in Africa all with there own style and or beats. And this is no sort of overnite thing either - to become a sacred drumer. As I understand it at least in Africa, one practices for years to become one.

FrDeaconEd,

I took what you said in the tone you said to say without saying it directly that I live life by making excuse for all my actions or decisions by useing my *blackness*, if you will, as a scapegoat. What would be rather iritating about an attitude like this is that it is commonly expressed on this board about the *experience* of the Easterner with his/her relationship to the Western Roman Church, and that how the East often feels disrespected by the Wesertn Roman Catholic. However while I don't doubt the Easterners feelings, and they may very well be valid, I doubt any Byzantine Catholic or Orthodox Christian that went to a Roman Catholic high school recieved mocking for being a Byzantine Catholic or Orthodox Christian. I could be wrong but I find it hard to believe. Yet I'm sure you would not have any problem in telling me how your experience or other Byzantine Catholics experience is quite reasonable grounds for your or their's cold relations to Roman Catholic - if that would be the case.

My comments about being black had to do with putting our own issues a side when it comes to being faithful to the Church - if it is correct that the Church is what it says it is and Christ was who the Church says He was then - fidelity to Christ & Church must come before personal fulfillment (human rights issues are another matter).

But we can make ammends. And anyways I'm not sure if your a Priest or a Deacon. God for bid I should hit a Priest. And I've been in my share of fights, and I know I hit pretty hard.

Dear SP,

If you'd like, I'm sure I can find you pictures of liturgical dancing going on in the U.S., illicitly of course...they're online somewhere. I particularly remember one incident during the consecration of a new church by the Bishop of Rochester, New York.

It happens.

Maximus,

I am a deacon, not a priest. The title "Father" is used for both priests and deacons with the word "Deacon" added for clarity. Professed monks who are not in Orders also use the title "Father". In the East this term refers to the fact that we are supposed to be "spiritual fathers" while, in the Latin Church, it refers to the fact that one is a presbyter.

As I recall, one of the soldiers hit Jesus. If he can take it, I can too...

Edward, deacon and sinner

Heh, I think I might be confusing some people here because they are talking to me as if I am Byzantine. I'm Roman Catholic. I joined this board to learn more about the Eastern Rite Catholic churches.

Mor Ephrem: I said it was unlikely to see it in your average Western RC Church, not that it doesn't happen. Also, liturgical dancing is allowed in the Latin Rite.

Robert,
I was truly distressed to hear that you would sacrifice your Byzantine Church for Episcopalian.
You were baptized in the Byzantine Church, you belong to the Byzantine church. Don't go looking for greener grass, for as the saying goes, if the grass is greener on the other side, chances are that the water bill is higher too.
Let's put one thing in focus. Don't lose sight of why you attend church services - to worship God. I'm sure that all of us can find some distraction or shortcoming in whatever parish we attend. But that is not the main point. The point is to offer true worship in your heart. Rise above the clutter.
Yurij

LOL!!! Good enough FrDeaconEd.

Yes. As far as I am aware, none of these things are, by themselves, abuses within the Latin patrimony.

K.

Dear Maximus,

Now that everyone's calmed down finally, let's dance!!

We have a Catholic Church of the Geez Rite (and two wonderful Ethiopian Orthodox Churches) and the liturgical dance is both sobre and beautiful.

It calls to mind the dance of King David before the Ark of the Covenant, and certainly the African Church venerates the Ark very highly.

I love watching the priests sway to the drums and other musical instruments with their miquamia on their shoulders and in their colourful robes.

It is just such a joy to be able to worship in a way that is so Biblical and ancient!

I understand that the procession of newly-weds in the Byzantine Church is called the "Dance of Isaiah" as well.

Those who don't like liturgical dance shouldn't knock it until they've seen it or even tried it.

Alex

Dear Alex:

"I understand that the procession of newly-weds in the Byzantine Church is called the "Dance of Isaiah" as well."

I can't believe that you, of all people, seem to doubt the verasity of your own statement on the "Dance of Isaiah".

[I know, it's early and I'm just being picky].

As to liturgical dance, it certainly has a long venerable tradition in Christian Africa and is certainly a beautiful thing to behold.

What I object to is it's insertion in formal "Western Rite" services, it's just not part of our faith tradition.

And...
If I can remember, there was a sort of liturgical dance at one of the Pope's liturgies in Ukraine, during communion no less.

defreitas