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I sympathize with all who find certain liturgies a difficulty. We would always hope participation in common worship would be spiritually satisfying. For those who have particular parobelms with particular liturgical forms or practices, I thing we need to admit these are not problems in which we can not easily help in this forum or in other groups. It is a very individualistic and particular issue.

Not to harp on a point I have made before and in which sometimes my position has been misunderstood, I think these problems sometimes arise by a too quick acceptance of a search for prefered liturgical forms, hopping from parish to parish, rite to rite, without regard to the integrity of particular communities.

You would be surprised what "abuses", or practices you can put up with when you have a real community.

Let me put it this way, do you hop around every Thanksgiving to find the family that has the best, the niciest, the most elegant Thanksgiving Dinner? Or do you go to your own family, despite the mismatched china, Uncle Bob's off-color jokes, that yuchie green bean and mushroom soup cassarole and your sisters five year twins who she does not properly discipline?

Work at parish community first, then see about what liturgical forms you cannot stand.

K.

Dear Robert,

"Barely clad female minister . . ."

What is the location of that church again?

"Many of your comments have been so wonderful"

Thank you!


Alex

Whoa, Robert!

I still don't know what liturgical abuses you're talking about. No offence, but while you did describe some things which are indeed scandalous, it seems that it could equally be the excited nature of your describing these abuses that makes them seem larger than they are (at least to me). Would you mind listing a few of the concrete abuses, either here, or in a private email to me? I would like to see some of these, since where I am, I feel the same way about the Roman parishes here...thanks.

This is why I could not be a Priest . While I tend to be more attracted to the physical aspects of black women. I must admit, regarding the breast area, I find the lustrous skin and cleavage, glistening with a light sweat, of a dark white woman like that of an Italian woman or those of those Eastern European women who seem to have a little Turk somewhere in there blood line - the most drawing and aluring.

I wouldn't want to embarrass the parishoners or myself - if I find myself *uncontrolably* attracted to this woman One can get a good view of cleavage when giving communion .

**************************************************

Robert,

Let me also give my apology for being very harsh on you. I'm sure there are many aspects of my catholicty where you could be rightfuly harsh on me. I'm still working on tempering my emotions.


Sincerely,

Justin

Dear Maximus,

Well, priest or not, we must all try to keep abreast of things . . .

Personally, I think women are beautiful and God's works of art.

Or so my confessor tells me . . .

Alex

.................................................

Wow.

If you think the music is inappropriate or the eucharistic ministers are not in proper attire, talk to the priest about it. Don't blame the entire Latin Rite.

Dear Angela,

I will resist the temptation to engage in any sort of "tit for tat."

Alex

Slava Isusu Christu!

Thank you all again for your posts, but this sick humor about women is innapropriate. I mentioned the casually clad eucharistic minister as a case in point in regard to liturgical abuses as to a reason why I could not attend the local Roman parish.

I think many Byzantines also suffer from the same dilemma. Do they "have" to endure these things for "valid" sacraments when there is no Byzantine Catholic parish available. I talked to our Chancery a few months ago and they told me to go to the Roman parish anyway because I should just go there so I will have Penance and the Eucharist, BUT I cannot go they do not seek the fulness of their Catholic faith they only wish to hide it. And I will not go. I am starting to think that the Orthodox are right: "why are they in communion with heretics? True Orthodoxy does not unite itself with heretics and those who have rejected Holy Tradition."

I don't know. I see now I must return to the Orthodox Church; I can no longer be united with these wacky Latins!

Thank you all for your time and help.

Robert,

As one of these wacky Latins - we are not all like that . Please do not think too harshly of us. Yes there are abuses in all churches - some worse than others .

I am one of those female Eucharistic Ministers - but I do dress decently. However you do not have to receive from one of them , many in my Parish prefer to Receive the Sacrament from the Priest and this is respected .

Only last week I found myself giving Communion to an Eastern Catholic Family - and a wonderful sight it was too - Mum and 2 very well behaved young children.

May Our Blessed Lady keep you in Her most tender care and lead you to Her Wonderful Son

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Alex,

Actually the Black Madonna is so dark because of the years. It was darker than contemporary art makes Christ & the Child look today, but nowhere near as dark as it appears now. God Bless!

IC XC NIKA,
-Nik!
http://YourCatholic.com

Robert,

Welcome to Orthodoxy. We're wacky, too.

Axios

Much of the activity of the Church is directly related to the contemporary culture of the communicants.

There are many among the Catholic Churches who prefer more staid and 'conservative' (if you will) approaches to liturgy. Others are more interested in 'creativity' and attempts to re-invent liturgy-- with whatever results.

And the results come to fruition in the liturgics. I don't think that one can call the results 'heinous' or 'scandalous' or 'inappropriate' since the liturgy is 'of the people' (it's very definition!!). While there may be some things that some people find disagreeable, it is still the Church. Eucharistic ministers chosen from among the women of the community is one aspect of it. Some may not be comfortable, but it is the parish community. There are some things about changes in our Byzantine Church that make me uncomfortable, but it is not enough of a reason to church-hop.

Whenever I get 'antsy', I just turn on Peter Popov or Benny Hinn, or some other televangelist and I realize how lucky/blessed I am.

Blessings, y'all!

Dear Robert:

I have this theory about "irritation." Irritation is God's way of communicating with us. He is calling us to question some aspect of our beliefs and values. Perhaps He is calling you to a more general love and understanding of Catholicism. You can actually become a more authentic Eastern Catholic by embracing the West. It is difficult but not impossible. Let me try to explain.

In your personal prayer life, you need to develop an "Eastern" rule of prayer. This could revolve around our Hours and incorporate our readings as well as the regular recitation of the Jesus Prayer. This would place you within the liturgical cycle, and in unity of mind and spirit with your brethren in the East. Your Sunday obligation and the reception of the sacraments via the Roman Church will link you to the Church Universal. In essence, even though you are celebrating the Roman Liturgy, you remain in communion with all of us.

Perhaps someday, you will have the opportunity to be a member of an Eastern Catholic community in a physical sense. Just remember, you already are.

This is the unique patrimony of Eastern Catholicism in the diaspora. We all live in the shadow of Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. We must all embrace Western Christianity to some extent. We may utilize and support Roman Catholic schools, social agencies, fraternal organizations, and so on; we may attend Roman Catholic Churches to some extent, but we do not lose our Eastern identity. This does not mean that we believe that the Eastern path is better. But we do believe that our Tradition is authentic and true. We are Eastern because we must be. It's as much a part of us as the color of our skin.

Fr. Dcn. John

Petrus (Fr. Dcn. John),

I think that was a very good post you posted. Thought those were probably excellent suggestions you gave Robert. If I were to add anything it would just be to say that Robert is just as catholic as I am or any other Latin (infact as I've tried to say before in the past, ones catholicity is not depended on wheter your Latin Rite or Byzantine Rite per se, I've been corrected by a Byzantine Rite that certian beliefs I held were not *catholic* but protestant. And how one approaches the world can be catholic or not. It is possible for Byzantines to engage the minds of members of the Latin Church to see, to understand, to be more *catholic*.) and being that catholic he has every right to put forth suggestions to the hiearchy of the Roman Catholic Church as to how better fulfill it's catholicity.

Personaly I like the reverence, the respect for mystery, the honor of tradition, you can clearly see in the Eastern Catholic Rite and Orthodox Divine Liturgy. I don't much care for many of the *Protestant* aspects of many modern Catholic parishes in todays America. But as it is, certian things and certain people are more important - in general - to the hiearchy of the Latin Rite Catholic Church. But let me say this - I do appreciate the cultural diversity given a do honor in todays Latin Church. Maybe in a generation or two a balance will be found.

I understand there is no rule saying the Pope has to be a Latin Rite Catholic - just as I believe there is no rule saying a saint must be a member of clergy - so perhaps even a lowly Byzantine can be some sort of lighting rod for change in a rather arrogant Roman Church?