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I couldn't tell you what Church law says, because I'm certainly no expert. I leave that to the more learned and scholarly among us.

Your situation reminds me of my own in college - the campus ministry for Catholics was, well, WACKY and, dare I say?, not Catholic. It was very hard to find a place to worship. Most students I know who went were reticent to receive Communion. Here's an example: a laywoman was saying parts of the Mass only a priest can say.

Interestingly, the students complained so very much about the unorthodox services and statements being made from the pulpit, that the Catholic campus ministry was re-vamped and re-staffed after a couple of years and we felt like we could come back there.

Personally, I would attend an Orthodox church if I could not attend a Byzantine Catholic or Roman Catholic one. I would probably introduce myself to the Orthodox priest and explain my situation. I know a couple Orthodox priests and they've always been welcoming. (One of cousins was one, actually. As I mentioned in other posts elsewhere, we're a family with lots of Catholic and Orthodox members.) I personally wouldn't feel comfortable attending a Protestant church.

Will you let us know what happens?

Alex,

I have to say you know an awful lot about the Universal Church history. I read some of your stuff on some things and I have absoultly know idea what your talking about or the era your talking about. And what then really shocks me a bit, is that you rarely seem to hold a concrete position in many areas. I know some things on Church history (as small as it is), and dare I say more then the average catholic (at least Latin), from my own personal desire and search. But out of my own study has come the strengthing of many positions. But is there a paradox that the more you learn the more concrete in your position you become - but then?! The More You Learn The Less Concrete In Your Position You Become?

Dear Jose,

Actually, I was talking to Maximus, not you

If I'm a bit timid and careful, it's because you never know who will come after you here nowadays for just confessing the Creed

I agree that not all Churches should have liturgical dance. But again I never said anything of the sort, and was just commenting to my friend, Maximus.

Again, who asked you . . .

God bless and don't be so picky!

Alex

Dear Maximus,

I think you raise a very interesting and important issue.

I certainly have found that I become less definite about my views the more I read and pray about them.

There is always the exception to the rule and just when I think I've covered off everything, someone comes along and shows me there is more to know and experience.

I like to experience the beauty of the diversity of God's creation and try to understand it as well as celebrate it.

That to me is everything.

God bless, Friend,

Alex

Don't the Copts have liturgical dance?

Dear Marshall,

No. Unless you extend "Coptic" to mean the Ethiopians too, but they prefer to affirm their own separate Particular identity.

Alex

Oh yeah... :p

Maybe the terminlogy I used wasn't the good one, when I said "liturgical dancing" because I didn't mean the kind of ld that is frequent in the Coptic or Ethiopian churches. I come from a Latin American background, so the "abusive" things I see belong to the same gender but are a little bit different (guitars, exorcisms, sincretism and things that are common and accepted in the Latin American RC). They are cultural differences (you were discussing them in the "role of culture"), but sometimes it becomes an abuse.

Dear Remie,

Yes, I'm having trouble understanding just what "abuse" consists of.

Is it in the eye of the beholder? Is it when it goes against liturgical directives? Is it when it goes beyond them?

Alex

Dear Alex:

Smile now...


defreitas

Dear Defreitas,

O.K., Jose!



Alex

Hello:


I don't think this is an abuse. The proper liturgical authority has allowed this in many places and I don't have anything against it.

Back in Mexico this was very unusual, but I doubt that anyone would've had any trouble with it.


One has to understand that the liturgical music is for the service of the liturgy. If the liturgy is properly served, then musical style is more or less irrelevant.

I've heard rock pieces that make excellent gathering or sending forth hymns. Of course, I'd have issues with heavy metal used for Communion hymns.


Back in Mexico this is not only allowed but encouraged, especially for big feasts. Dancers also use to offer Copal, an American equivalent to the Old-World Incense.


So, should we remove the "deliver us from evil" line from the Lord's Prayer? That's actually a form of exorcism, you know?

Do you refer to public SOLEMN RITUAL exorcisms? Are there really people doing *that*?

Shalom,
Memo.

Again. I know that altar girls are not common there, but they are in other countries (remember that I said "I don't know, but let me guess").
I didn't make a reference to those dancers (the ones with copal), and I'm not opposed to them. I've seen priests who do "limpias" and some rituals that look like "public exorcisms" like those that are practiced by protestant preachers. I know this is a byzantine forum so I wouldn't like to bring more stuff about this.
I know I sound very "conservative" but I'm not, I'm not against that kind of spirituality, but I feel more confortable with a serious and reverent service. It's interesting that most of the catholic faithful there, feel very happy with what I think it's liberalism, maybe I'm wrong... only God knows.

Salaam

One very important point seems to have been overlooked.

The Church, and its communal gatherings (liturgies, etc.) exists to facilitate peoples' pilgrimage to God. The whole purpose behing the celebrations is to make people feel stronger in their faith.

Unfortunately, sometimes the celebrations take on a flavor that is 'off-putting' to some folks in the congregation. (I don't particularly care for guitars. Unless played by Segovia, they suck -- as the college kids say. And I don't like "improvization" -- my science/logic side wants things to be according to the book. And so, I empathize with the folks who are disenchanted and disenfranchised from some of the modes of American Roman Catholic celebration.)

BUT, there are usually other options within the RC church diocese. And one should make the effort to find a parish where one can pray comfortably. However, I can understand that there might be situations where this is just not possible. And so, I would suggest that the RC find an Orthodox parish to pray in. Or, even an Episcopalian parish (sacramentality aside).

The key point is: prayer and the pilgrimage forward to the Father/Creator. It is the welfare of the person's soul that is the prime concern for me, not the 'jurisdiction'. One must always pray at home and by one's self. There is no question about this, nor about the need for examination of conscience. But we humans most often need the communal support of liturgics (group worship). And sometimes, one has to take a side-trip detour to find something that will help on a temporary basis. No sweat. If that means doing "Morning Prayer" at the Episcopals and then coming home to do the Hours and an examination of conscience, then do it if it progresses you spiritually. Better that than going to the RC parish (or Byzantine parish) and seething throughout the services. In that case it would be preferable to go and volunteer at a hospital or nursing home or prison and come home to do the hours.

Perhaps this is not what is 'canonically' acceptable, but I think it is better from a spiritual-direction point of view. It fulfils the need to make spiritual progress -- and THAT is the key issue as any starets would tell you.

Blessings!

Dear Friends:

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond; I have been away. I have resolved to stop going to the Episcopal Church. I think the main thing is that I feel so alone in the practice of our Byzantine Catholic Faith that I have really caved in. I recently looked at the pictures of my Baptism and Chrismation and they really brought me back to the power of our Faith. Even though I am alone here; I will try to do my best to pray before the ikon corner and live our Eastern traditions.

In regard to abuses. I cannot in good conscience attend the modern liturgy of the Latin Church, even though it is valid. I believe it is a severe departure from the traditions of the Church of Rome. I have testified to this over and over again when I have attended Masses at Latin parishes. The traditional Mass of the Latins is good, but in no wise overshadows the Liturgies of the East. I chose the Episcopal Church for ascetics and I repent of that, but I still cannot attend that ungodly office bulding/sacred space they call a Church here in town. I think there is a problem when the Protestants hold to more of the Latin traditions then the Latin Church here. This is not about the people its about worship and to be honest good taste and reverence for the Holy Things. Many of your comments have been so wonderful. While many of the Latins posting here are upset that anyone would dare critize the out and out abuses of their Ritual Church, I would say SOMETHING needs to be said and done about it. When I as a Catholic of another Ritual Church cannot attend another Catholic Church because they are modernist and full of abuses and scandals liturgically, I am bound by my conscience to not attend even though Our Lord is there being imprisoned by such heinous atrocities and the priest is valid. I had once converted to Orthodoxy and came back to the Byzantine Catholic Church because of my love for the Holy Father, BUT it was out of love for HIM and my Byzantine Church and not the Latin Church even though we are in full communion. So I will not attend. I will NOT be latinized and sing folksy-wolksy clap-trap and receive Jesus from a barely clad female "eucharistic minister" and I will not subscribe to their anti-Tradition rhetoric and party line. As one Byzantine priest once said "the modern Roman Rite is like the Titanic so many people are trying to re-arrange the deck chairs when they should be trying to jump ship and that ship is the Carpathia ." Many have recognized this including my Godfamily that changed Rites several years ago from the Roman Rite to the Carpatho-Rusyn. I was so severely blessed by God to have been baptized and chrismated into the Byzantine Catholic Church. I must keep remembering that; I must strive all I can to remain faithful, even though it is hard, to Her.

Thank you all for your wonderful help and care.

St. Nicholas of Myra pray for me!

In Christ and the Theotokos:


Robert