www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Evangelizing North America

Administrator's Note:

This thread has been created from a thread on pirohi originally started by Susan. The thread split into two good topics, the second being a discussion of evangelization. Please continue the discussion of evangelization in this thread.

My apologies to Susan for allowing this second discussion within the first discussion.

Dear Administrator,

One would think that someone with your great love of ethnic, Slavic food would be AGAINSTn and not in favour of, a single Byzantine jurisdiction where there MIGHT be the danger of cultural assimilation to the dominant mainstream.

But the idea of a North American seven-course meal (a hamburger and a six-pack of beer) is enough to keep anyone put in their ethnic parishes, don't you think?

O.K., O.K. I'm going . . .

Alex

Alex,

Not at all. St. Gabriel�s Parish in Las Vegas makes both pirohi and tamales and sells them as fundraisers. Food sales also attract people (or at least their appetites) to the parish. Have you ever eaten freshly made pirohi with freshly made salsa? It�s delicious! [IMHO it�s actually better than eating them with butter and onions or mushroom gravy.]

As delicious as ethnic food is, it is unimportant. The Church does not exist to guard against the loss of ethnic food, or even to preserve ethnic identity. It exists to proclaim the Gospel to the world and to bring all men to Christ.

But we are getting off topic. Please feel free to start a new thread if you wish to discuss this issue again.

Admin

Dear Administrator,

Well, you started it with your mouth-watering observations.

I agree with your assessment and I'm happy to see that your sense of humour is as it ever was!

However, if you knew just how many new parishioners have joined St Volodymyr's in Thornhill because of the "pull of the perogies," then you wouldn't be so dismissive of the role of food in evangelization, I don't think.

As I don't really like perogies or tamales, I won't start a new thread, but thanks!

Alex

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!

This topic came up at my recent ikon camp/retreat/wrokshop.

We were talking about the "pyrohy ladies", "kolachy ladies" or "rolling pin" brigade, whatever you want to call them. We mentioned that these people and their work are now becoming a much needed form of Ministry within many of the churches. Without them, many churches, not necessarily "our" own, simply would not survive and would be forced to close their doors.

Anyone else have any ideas or thoughts...

Only 67 dozen?

My cousin makes 60 dozen of just sauerkraut for her church when they sell pyrohy during the year. I think the parish stops taking orders at 400 dozen.

I also heard that there are 30,000 medovnyky ready for decorating at Mt. Macrina....

Ready troops, grab those icing bags and form up!

mark

Let us not forget that, in the Early Church, gatherings of Christians took place at people's homes and involved, quite literally, a meal.

Yours,

hal

Perhaps "ethnic" food is not necessary for evangelism, but the Lord seemed to think that breaking bread together had an important part to play - whether at an intimate supper with the disciples, or dining al fresco on a bit of bread and a few little fishies with a crowd of thousands.

And the road to many a church renovation has been paved with pierogies.

At St. John's in Columbus, we do pierogies (and I don't care what other people think I should be calling them ) a couple times for sale to parishioners and at a couple of the larger RC parishes during Lent, and we also do 'em again in the Fall for sale at the International Festival. There are quite a number of people in Columbus who know who we are now because of those pierogies. ("Oh, the big gold dome on Cleveland Avenue! ")

Aside from the fact that they are undeniably yummy, and that they bring in $$$, the act of working together to make pierogies (or tamales, or spinach pies, or whatever) builds community. You need community before you can have a cohesive liturgical life. You need good liturgy to strengthen the people for the work of evangelism.


Cheers, and pass the pierogies.

(Skip the kielbasa - I grew up Jewish.)


Sharon

Sharon wrote:
Aside from the fact that they are undeniably yummy, and that they bring in $$$, the act of working together to make pierogies (or tamales, or spinach pies, or whatever) builds community. You need community before you can have a cohesive liturgical life. You need good liturgy to strengthen the people for the work of evangelism.

Amen to that!

I know at St. Josephs they never had a bill due for anything they were building or renovating. The pirohi was made and dinners were served, and when they ordered something they needed for construction the money was there to pay the bill when it was delivered. Plus the people there are awesome tithers, and really supported the church very generously.

So as with St. George the are also very strong supporters financily of the church. And like with St. Josephs they give freely of their time to the Lord.

As I remember when we came to St. Georges not really understanding what was happening completely. We would hear well the Lebonese make this and the Palestenians made that. WEll under the prayer and guidence of Fr. Frank they all work together wonderfully well now doing everything.

And not only does the whole church work together, there are those from each of these churches the help out with each others food festival; Melkite, Maronite, and Greek Orthodox. So it truly does forms ties that bind. They just enjoy working together.

In the early years too, we have been there since 1986 and they were doing it long before that, they only had one person doing church tours. This past year they had four, so we had groups all over the church. So it truly is a tool of evngelization. And the money made is used for a lot of different things not just the churchs necessities.

Pani Rose

Dear Mother Sharon,

Yes, you are right about the food - is the Administrator in a sulk or something today?

Evangelization aside, as Hal said, business and politics are always conducted over the lunch or dinner table (w(h)ine included . . .).

When it came to food preparation and festivities in our parish, I too used to get on a soap-box and say things like, "But we are here to preach and teach and blah-blah-blah."

It's amazing how willing to listen people are after a good meal eaten in good fellowship.

Not only have our Ukies come out for these events, but also other people, including Orthodox immigrants and, yes, even members of the English/Celtic Canadian mainstream.

My father-in-law goes around with microphone in hand, like a Slavic Phil Donahue, and talks to people to ask them to join the parish.

Whenever someone, in mid-gulp, agrees to join, he immediately announces it and says, "And we have another member over here, folks, let's give him/her a warm hand of welcome into our parish family, shall we?" And everyone claps and some get a standing ovation - like our newest member, a Filipino woman and mother of two!!

We are a multicultural parish, even though no one is ready to call it "Byzantine (non-ethnic) Catholic" or whatever.

The fact that it is Ukie hasn't offended anyone and won't. But the new, non-ethnic members do call the Divine Liturgy the "Ukrainian Liturgy."

In fact, up here people don't want the cosmopolitan sameness and dullness that a non-ethnic parish would bring.

Learning another language is no big deal and in St Catharines, about half of the parish are former Tridentine Catholics who have learned the Liturgy in Ukrainian. (They say it is simpler than Latin, but I don't know about that . . .).

So our parish "praxis" up here seems quite different from the experiences of some of youz guyz down there.

The Administrator does go on about losing members and closing down parishes (but we love him anyway!).

But I think it would perhaps be too simplic sociologically to draw that connection between parish closings and ethnic language, at least here in Toronto (Canada).

In other words, why do we assume that if we had all English liturgies that the parish wouldn't close anyway?

And, from what I can tell, those MOST in favour of Ukie Liturgies are those who speak Ukrainian the least - their ancestors came here 100 years ago and they are very attached to the symbol of the language for various reasons - all of which Hritzko has doubtless memorized .

And, Mother Sharon, (are you still reading this? ), ethnic foods aren't the only reason why our parish is attractive to others.

It is a totally different cultural experience of the Gospel.

If we were going to say, like the evangelistic Administrator, that we are "going to preach the Gospel," there are lots of churches that do that up here as well.

What we are preaching is not just the Gospel, but an entirely distinct spiritual cultural experience OF the Gospel.

Are we saying the Latin Church does not preach the Gospel or that it does not have the fullness of truth?

I hope not, or else we'll be hearing from Iconophile and Amado!

We are not, let me reiterate, ONLY preaching the Gospel but a unique way of looking at it which is what makes the Byzantine Churches so unique.

And part of the heritage of those Churches is the wider cultural context in which Byzantine Christianity itself became inculturated and developed and which goes well beyond ethnic foods and traditions.

Our new, non-ethnic members come to our Church because they really do want to experience that uniqueness, both in spiritual and in cultural terms.

Ethnic food is just one of those happy perks that comes with it all!

A good day to you!

Alex

Of course!

My point is that our parishes should not use ethnicity a requirement for membership.

The �unique way of looking at it� is not something that is incompatible with the blended North American culture. If it is then it violates the spirit of proclaiming the Gospel and must be altered or abandoned.

One need not become a Greek, an Arab or a Slav in order to become a Byzantine Christian. One need not even find these ethnicities attractive! Just as each of these groups accepted the Gospel in its Byzantine form and let it (re)form their culture so, too, are we to give the Gospel in its Byzantine form to North America and let it (re)form the North American culture.

Where would the Slavs be if the Greeks who gave them Jesus Christ insisted that they abandon their Slavic ethnicity for a Greek one? Imagine the impact on Slavic Christianity and culture if SS Cyril & Methodius had insisted that the Slavs learn Greek in order to worship God? Or use Greek liturgical chant instead of developing their own chant?

We must do for North America what SS Cyril & Methodius did for the Slav.

Look to the day when there are 75 million Byzantine Catholics in the United States (who are lead by the Patriarch of Washington).

Look to the day when there are 10 million Byzantine Catholics in Canada (who are led by the Patriarch of Toronto).

Dear Administrator,

Over here! Hey, the guy with the glasses and the three-Bar Cross, do you see me?

And why would we want to "Byzantinize" all of North America, pray ask?

Are we to view Roman Catholics and pious Protestants as "pagans" ripe for evangelization (perhaps some of them are . . .)?

Rather than numbers, how about we have a good, strong presence here.

Even the Antiochian Orthodox Church has had the foresight to establish Western Rites for former Anglicans and RC's, including a mission to the "Evangelical Orthodox" and quite possibly a forthcoming rite for former Lutherans.

We are not called, I don't think, to make Byzantines of North Americans, Sir!

I believe we are called to witness to Christ from within our unique theological perspective.

This will, hopefully, revive faith among those who have either lost it, never had it, or need more of it.

Some will join us, but I daresay others will return to their churches, including the RC Church to be better committed Christians.

I personally would not want to try and convert a pious RC over to the BC's.

Nor would I want you to join the Ukrainian Catholic Church (I'm dealing with enough pain already ).

I think we are a way off from having a native American Eastern Church.

Being Eastern is still a locational/cultural issue, even when we've de-ethnicized.

The day when North American Anglo-Saxons see the Eastern onion dome with the three bar Cross as part of the mainstream will be the day when we can hope to be deluged with converts and other joiners.

But even with English-only liturgies and free tickets to baseball games after the Liturgy - the Eastern Churches are still spiritual foreigners in North America.

Alex

Because it would be silly for us Byzantines to evangelize the unchurched North Americans to be Roman Catholic.

Roman Catholics and other Orthodox are our equals. One does not evangelize others who are already one with us.

Protestants do not hold the fullness of the Gospel. We are to witness Christ in such a way they what they see in us will cause them to choose to join us. In that way they will obtain the fullness of the Gospel. [Yes, I would like to see every Protestant Church dwindle as their people become Byzantine Catholic.]

But the people I am speaking about are those North Americans who do not really know Christ. These are the people with no formal religion as well as those who are only culturally Christian (the ones with no personal faith relationship with Jesus Christ). These are the people we are to invite to join us in following Christ so that they may be saved. We are to welcome them into our parishes,to make a home with us. If the historic parish ethnicity interferes with hospitality (to the point where newcomers do not feel at home with us) then we need to adapt. We must also realize (and welcome) that as new parishes spring up there will be few ethnic Slavs (or Greeks or Arabs) in them. It would be wrong to expect a new parish to be anything but pancultural, depending on the peoples that join.

Such a statement is a death sentence to Byzantine Christianity in North America.

Yes. And this is because we have not presented Byzantine Christianity to North America in a language it understands. We have kept our light under a basket made of ethnicity. Our Light needs to shine.

Dear Administrator,

No death sentences please!

You know I don't like talking about myself, but circumstances here force me too . . .

I'm heartened that God has used me to bring others to Christ and to His Church.

Sometimes they return to their Roman Catholic roots and I've no wish to "Byzantinize" them.

Besides, Rome would not really allow it anyway - do you deny that Rome sees Western-area converts as automatic Latin Church members? We know they do.

But you yourself, Sir, said that the our relationship with Christ is about faith, not perogies.

I will go one step further and say that it is also about Church - irrespective of which Church it is, Latin, Byzantine, Coptic, what have you.

And I've met many pious Anglicans, Lutherans and Methodists, even some monastics within those traditions - sorry, but I wouldn't dream of considering their life of Grace to be inferior to those of Catholics and Orthodox, much as we might like to think that it is.

The real death sentence that looms over us, Sir, is, I believe, the death sentence of assimilation.

Could it be that your view, and I'm only positing the question, of amalgamating everyone under one jurisdictional (and ultimately cultural, but you'll disagree) roof simply a way of hastening the day that sentence's execution?

Can there be other, dynamic ways of achieving your vision?

Alex

Is this an acceptable reason not to share Jesus Christ and the fullness of the Gospel with them? We have plenty of people who are former Protestants who have come into the Byzantine Church. A few even like holupki! That Rome�s current cannons still direct Protestants to the Latin Church is not really an obstacle. Is mere paperwork.

Yes, there are many people who do not hold the fullness of the faith who are actually better Christians than we are. Still, the Church commands that we bring all people into the Church since we alone hold the fullness of the Gospel.

Assimilation will occur whether you like it or not. Since 1990 your own Ukrainian Catholic Diocese of Toronto has lost 53% of its members. More people who were baptized in the various Byzantine Churches (Catholic and Orthodox) now worship in Roman Catholic and Protestant Churches than worship in Byzantine Churches (Catholic and Orthodox). You can either build Byzantine parishes where differing ethnic groups can worship together or you can watch your Church die. You have no other option expect to continue importing large numbers Ukrainians from Ukraine on a regular basis until the Second Coming. But as Ukraine recovers and grows, taking its place in the European community, fewer and fewer will come to North America.

Administrator wrote:

Yes. And this is because we have not presented Byzantine Christianity to North America in a language it understands. We have kept our light under a basket made of ethnicity. Our Light needs to shine.

See here you are also speaking to a former Southern Baptist. I mean raised in rural southern towns, eating southern cooking. I had never even heard a Polish name until I went in the Air Force and then I married into one .

Do you really think I had any fore knowledge of how to speak Polish, Slavonic, Greek, or Arabic? Never heard of those before either. But, when God moves on your heart and moves you into his world in a new way, you just go with the flow trusting that he will get you to where he wants you to be.

It is true we are the best kept secret around. Maybe that is because it was so ethenic. But, God is doing a new thing. You have a Melkite Church(I believe that is the one) in Chicago saying the Divine Liturgy in Spanish. Sounds to me like they have gone past their comfort zone to help make it easier for many to understand.

What we need are people willing to stand at the doors and shake someones hand as they enter, and then someone who is willing to have them sit with them and help them through what is happening. Someone to make sure they come downstairs afterwards for coffee and... That is how we make our chruches more open to folks. It isn't the language barrier.

A Protestant friend of our oldest son came to church with him several times. Afterwards he said,I have you folks all figured out. He said you are about the mystery of God and respect. A pretty astute observation. But, because of that he can worship with us. Language is not the barrier, man is.

Pani Rose