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Funny how Susie's pinch pinch pinch gets into such a deep discussion

Dear Administrator,

Your refusal to deal with serious questions in a serious way is really not edifying at all.

Either you want to engage in a serious discussion of these issues, or you don't.

Your "cop out" comment is the ULTIMATE copping out.

You are just afraid that your "one Byzantine jurisdiction" ideology may have some of its kinks exposed in such a discussion which is why you refuse to enter into it and prefer, instead, to punch holes in things I've said.

That's really not your style, Administrator, and I'm sorry that, on this score, you seem to have taken on a strident attitude that does not become you.

What I'm asking is not unreasonable, Sir.

Your rebuff to me by way of response certainly is.

When you are ready to take this issue seriously, as it affects the future of our Church, just give a holler!

Alex

Dear Admin:

That's the whole point. We DON'T care. In fact, if you can accomplish this, more power to you - GREAT JOB. Please accept my sincerest congratulations.

Still, I respectfully fail to see how that supports your point that the ethnically-based Churches must cut their jurisdictional ties to the old country and be forced to join some ethnically-neutral Byzantine Rite Catholic Church for North America.

I aksed this once and I will ask again - why not just let assimilation do its thing and, eventually, the ethnically-neutral Church will, according to your model, be the only one that remains?

Perhaps I have misunderstood you, sir, but you seem to be promoting an artificial acceleration of a natural process. Why bother?

Yours,

hal

I would agree with the administrator that Greek cuisine (as great as it is) would not have been a factor in having the Grand Princes of Kyiv-Rus (Ukraine) consider Christian Orthodoxy as state region for his subjects. The unique alphabet created for the Slavs was clearly one of the two factors for accepting Christian Orthodoxy over other religions or rites. For this we can thank the two Saints to the Slavs - Cyrill and Methodius.

The second may have been the 'secrets of masonry' (and I don't mean the secret handshaking people stuff ). Brick making at this time was considered 'high tech' on par with NASA of today and the Greeks were the masters of this 'engineering marvel' at the time. The Rus rulers believed that to create great Christian temples quickly and economically, they had to acquire these masonry skills from the Greek Orthodox, and it is thought that this was also an important factor in accepting Christianity from Byzantium.

So in a nutshell, maybe Souvlaki did not sway the Grand Princes, but Greek masonry probably had a significant influence.

Alex's view should not be considered ethnocentric, but rather a realistic reflection of multicultural Canada vs the melting pot USA.

Ukrainians Canadians who were discriminated againsts for generations (as were most Slavs) fought hard to preserve and promote their rites of Christianity and their culture. It was no coincidence that the former Prime Minister of Canada announced the federal policy (and Ministry) of 'Multiculturalism' at the Ukrainian Canadian Congress' national convention in 1971 (?). Prime Minister Trudeau clearly stated during his speach at the banquet that no other group in Canada was able to preserve and nurture the cultures of the immigrant minorities as where the Ukrainians (btw, this includes not just Galician Rusyns but also Carpatho Rusyns). So, if some Ukrainian Canadians (ie: Alex) have fat heads, believe me, they have been inflated with hot air from some very prominent Canadians :p .

Today 'mainstream can be almost anything in Canada. When Canadian Governor General Ray Hnatyshyn died recently, his +2 hour long Orthodox funeral was broadcast live, mostly in Ukrainian. The Prime Minister, the Cabinet, the diplomats, and hundres of other people of note who stood at attention through the Divine Liturgy and they did not think that the service was anything other than 'mainstream'.

Although it is sad that Alex's cousin left the Byzantine rite, I have uncles and aunts who left also and their departure had nothing to do with wanting to be part of the 'Anglo-mainstream'. It's part of the normal process of acculturation / assimmilation which often have nothing to do with not liking the faith into which you were born. You win some you loose some, it can happen quickly or drag on. There are many reasons for this, and my experience is that it has nothing to do with domes of the church In fact, the domes seems to attract more than anything else. Non Ukes stop to take pictures and visit those domes because they are so enchanted with them, so on this I do not agree with Alex.

I do believe that what Alex is stating is that: in Canada, the Ukrainians have been very much to Greek Catholicism as the Irish were to the Roman rite. In Canada, it's hard to just come and completely separate the two from one day to the next, and perhaps why should we ? Did the Irish Roman Catholics ?

In many ways the Irish used the Catholic Church to strengthen themselves as a group in the new world. In fact, many historians write that the Irish self-awareness and / or ideas of statehood only truly materialized in the new world once they enriched themselves and shed a generation of peoples who had developed inferiority complexes. Here they were able to develop the intricate political, financial, and geopolitical strength to help the 'old country'.

It should be also noted that the Ukrainian Greek (Byzantine) Catholic priests arriving from Ukraine, are very open, and even encourage non-Ukrainians from becoming members of our church. This is a 180 degree policy change from previous generations. They are in a greement with the administrator that there will not be endless generations immigrants arriving on our shores. Also, those comming often do not want to settle in the same areas a the older immigrants. Sacremento, never known to be a hotbed or traditional area of the Ukrainian diaspora, now has the largest Ukrainian Saturday school with over 400 students attending.

Unfortunately, the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church receives few if any new immigrants. The majority of the Carpatho-Rusyn immigrants arriving from Ukraine attend Ukrainian Greek Catholic Churches. Those arriving from Slovakia tend to affiliate themselves witht the Slovak Roman Catholic Church. They have become Slovakized / Latinized. Just because the idea of Carpatho-Ruthenism has pretty much come to an end, does not mean that the idea of Pan-Ruthenism (ie: Ukrainianism) should also end.

There should be no reason why our UGCC churches should not be open to non ethnic Ukrainians who wish to become members, or who just want to use our churches for American Byzantine Divine Liturgies. Further, it is great if other Greek (Byzantine) Catholics wish to unite to form a new church in the United States. However, this is not the immediate goal of our Ukrainian Greek Catholic and Orthodox Churches which will unite to form a strong new church with ties to Ukraine, but open to ALL Americans.

Hritzko

Alex,

Thanks for your post.

What I find to be both curious and sad is that you have already written off North Americans as a people who are incapable of comprehending and embracing Byzantine Christianity before there has been a serious effort to witness it to them. Why is this?

The Slavic culture at the time of SS Cyril & Methodius was far more foreign when compared to the Greek culture of that time than the North American culture is when compared to the Byzantine Christian culture (be it Arabic, Greek or Slavic).

Why do you believe that North Americans are incapable of comprehending Byzantine Christianity?

Why do you believe that North Americans are incapable of becoming Byzantine Catholics?

What is wrong with giving the essence of Byzantine Christianity to North America so that it may develop a uniquely North American expression of Byzantine Christianity?

I have seen some excellent examples of North Americans embracing Byzantine Christianity. I�ve written about it before, but several years back I had the privilege of visiting SS Peter and Paul Orthodox Church in Ben Lomond, California for Sunday Divine Liturgy. They are a group of (mostly) former Protestants who have embraced the Byzantine form of Christianity and made it their own. While that parish has certainly had its challenges, it is a wonderful example of the beginning of allowing Byzantine Christianity to form a unique and valid American expression. In their relatively short existence we already see the beginning of new compositions of liturgical music, which will someday replace the current liturgical music much like the Slavs developed their own chant to replace Greek chant. Closer to home, there are several Byzantine (Ruthenian) cantors who have composed new melodies for the Divine Liturgy. The seeds of a distinctively North American Byzantine ethos are already sprouting. They need people like you to nurture them so that they may take solid root and grow.

Admin

Hal,

Thanks for your post.

How do you justify not caring with the Gospel command that you proclaim the Gospel to all nations?

First, as Christians we have an obligation to proclaim the Gospel to all peoples � including the people of North America. It is logical that our Churches combine resources so that we may more effectively evangelize.

Second, a combined pan-ethnic jurisdiction provides a better foundation for the formation of new parishes. Such a move will allow us to speak to North America with one voice rather then multiple, ethnic voices.

Third, evangelical activity that is not restricted to one ethnic community can bring new peoples into our churches, providing a home for the remaining ethnic people as the ethnic community assimilates into the North American culture. [I say this realizing that there are some Byzantines who would rather leave Byzantine Christianity altogether then to worship in parish that is not ethnically pure.]

Because the pan-ethnic Church does not really exist yet. Some Byzantines have planted seeds, but those seeds are only beginning to sprout. It will take the ethnics to nurture those seeds and allow them to grow and develop into a mature, North American Byzantine Church.

Admin

Since we're talking about food, I don't see where the USA is a melting pot, where all the ingredients take on the characteristics of one another. In my mind a "melting pot" would produce a society something like what is found in the film, Blade Runner. I think a better expression is "salad bowl", where all the ingredients are mixed together but complement each other and yet retain their individuality, creating something pleasing to all the senses.

In the past 60 years only a tiny percentage of Byzantine Catholics have become Orthodox. Most people who have left the Byzantine Catholic Church now worship in Roman Catholic parishes. This is primarily due to 1) marriage of a Byzantine to a Roman Catholic (the Byzantine Catholic parish is seen as ethnic and the Roman Catholic parish is seen as American mainstream) 2) relocation of the Byzantine to a geographic area where there is no Byzantine Catholic parish and 3) the desire to belong to a mainstream, ethnically inclusive Church.

This same behavior is also evident throughout Orthodoxy (and for the same reasons). In fact I think we are at the point where more people who are baptized Orthodox now worship in Roman Catholic or Protestant Churches than worship in Orthodox Churches.

Dear Administrator,

Thank you for your post.

In actual fact, my point is not that North Americans can't comprehend Byzantine Christianity, that is no problem.

The point is, once again, a cultural, rather than a theological one that has, at the same time, to do with Christ's command to "teach all nations."

As you've raised them, Sts. Cyril and Methodius were sent to preach the Gospel in a language that was, in their day, not accepted as an acceptable language to teach in - namely, Slavonic.

There was no question that the Slavs should be Christianized - both East and West were fighting over which Slavic groups belonged to whom.

The question was one of culture and which spiritual culture was CLOSER and therefore more relevant and more capable of acting as the medium by which the Gospel of Christ was to be communicated to the Slavs and the East Slavs in particular.

The Byzantine spiritual culture was, by far, closer to the Slavs' own cultural perspective and the Byzantine-Slav tradition fused together to form what it is today.

For anyone to come along and say we can somehow go back to a pristine "Byzantine" spirituality minus the Slavic cultural aspect that is so integrally fused into it - well, that is simply an ahistorical perspective.

But now what you are saying is that we are to preach not so much the Gospel, but the Byzantine spiritual cultural context of the Gospel to North Americans.

And North Americans certainly have the right to join the Byzantine spiritual world.

All I'm saying is that the North American mainstream is culturally closer to the Western Churches than the Eastern.

If there was ever a rush of Western converts to ECism, you can bet your boots that Rome will come running in crying "foul!"

Eastern Orthodoxy is certainly trying to be more culturally accommodating here by introducing the Western Rites.

Sts Cyril and Methodius would not try to impose the Eastern tradition on Westerners, just as they refused to impose the Hellenic culture on the Slavs and fought for their rights to be of the culturally more relevant Byzantine world than the Latin world.

Sts Cyril and Methodius were for the "natural" model of inculturation and you seem to be most definitely against it.

But that is another point.

If you believe that one may "de-ethnicize" Byzantine Christianity by removing the "obligation" of being related to an ethnic group as a condition of membership, and that this will ensure longer life to our Churches, I am only asking you if you really do believe that Byzantine Christiantiy's spiritual culture is not, even with the ethnic stuff removed, already perceived as an "ethnic enterprise" by mainstream North Americans.

I'm not suggesting North Americans are too dull to understand or appreciate it, only that many of them would find it as "foreign" as they would the ethnic cultures YOU say stand as the roadblock to their desire to become members.

The fact that you get e-mails from people wishing to attend a BC church and that they have bad experiences - I agree that is deplorable.

But the issue still stands that Byzantine cupolas out of which comes English rather than Slavonic or Greek chanting are still Byzantine cupolas.

This may or may not be a major flaw in your argument, if you chose to treat it seriously.

But we will never find out until you decide to address it in some comprehensive way sans the unhelpful references to Sts Cyril and Methodius couched in rhetorical questioning.

That's O.K. for Debating 101. But it's getting us nowhere here.

If you think I'm your enemy, then you are wrong about that too.

My Church has always been Byzantine-Ukrainian. The two are so intertwined that I can't separate the two, except mentally perhaps.

I would just like to know why being Byzantine is any more a difficulty for the NA mainstream than being a member of the Ukrainian community is (and Professor Isajiw of the U of T outlined six ways of "being Ukrainian" including a merely psychological identification).

Let's leave Sts Cyril and Methodius out of it since I'm asking you directly.

And if you feel you must answer this question with another question, I"ll simply respond by saying, "Why not?"

Alex

Dear Father Deacon Montalvo,

I think your assessment of the U.S. situation is closer to the reality of it.

But you have to forgive Hritzko since this is how we Canucks are programmed to think!

Alex

Dear Friends,

I think it is time for me to bury the hatchet with the Administrator on this issue.

It is unseemly for us to continue this way

I agree with him that we must reach out to one and all as Orthodox Catholic Christians of the Byzantine tradition.

For my part, I'll continue working with my Church's youth and with our parish outreach.

And I'll work to have a full English liturgy for the non-Ukrainian speakers.

I"m not against that, lest anyone think that.

I'm scheduled for a radio and then a TV interview in August and September to discuss this very issue. I intend to take what will be the unpopular stand in our Church.

I want to thank the Administrator for a lively and interesting discussion.

He has shown, once again, what an interesting and fun place the Byzantine Christian Forum really is, how Christians may converse with one another respectfully and why there is NEVER any excuse for anyone to leave this Forum (unless they are, of course, asked to . . .)

And now it's time to go out and do some light weeding in the heat.

See you after the holidays!

Alex

I hope no one minds if I share my experience.

I lived less than 2 miles from an Eastern Catholic parish. When I was considering entering the Catholic Church I visited this parish as I was attracted to the Eastern Church. This was an extremely ethnic parish with lots of old people but no young people. My wife reluctantly came along with me and I could tell just from her body language that this place could not be our spiritual home.

I entered the Catholic Church via the local Roman parish. A few months later I discovered another Eastern parish about 8 miles away that was primarily-English, but significant amounts of the Liturgy were in Slavonic. I felt the draw again but knew it would not be something my wife would go for. Our family church event was still at a Roman Mass but I'd work in attending this Byzantine parish in addition as a second Liturgy on the weekends.

Later I discovered an Eastern parish about 24 miles away where Liturgy was sung entirely in English. The next Sunday I brought my wife and this became our spiritual home for several years. My children were baptized and chrismated there and after my wife converted we were both crowned there. I petitioned for a canonical change which was granted. I grew to love the pieroghis we'd experience in the fellowship hall after Liturgy especially if I could mix them with enchiladas! The parish has attracted many people from various backgrounds to it. We since have moved to another state but we sorely miss the community we had there. (As I understand, the parish that was about 8 miles from my home has done a similar transformation and is drawing in local people with no Eastern Church experience.)

I realize that there are strong feelings on this subject by those who have grown up with the Slavonic/Ukrainian background. I'm grateful that there was a parish community which reached out to us where we were. Even though I now will listen to CDs of Slavonic liturgies, I still know only about 10 words in Slavonic.

I do not feel it's inappropriate for our Churches to seek converts here in the West. (I don't mean stealing sheep from the Romans but those who are not in one of the Apostolic Churches or those who have no faith whatsoever.) That is what we're called to do--evangelize!

Dear Dave,

That's wonderful!

Speaking of difficult Ukrainians, if someone wanted to relate to Jehovah's Witnesses, what would you recommend?

Is there a tried and true method?

Alex

Dear Alex,

Thank you for your post.

Thank you also for acknowledging that North Americans are capable of comprehending Byzantine Christianity.

I believe that the Byzantine spiritual culture is very capable of acting as a medium to communicate the Gospel to North America. In fact, because of the required uniformity of the Latin Church, I believe that the Byzantine medium is much more able to adapt to speak to the unchurched peoples of North America than is Latin Catholicism.

I disagree that the Slav, Greek and Arabic cultural aspects are too integrally fused with Byzantine Christianity for Byzantine Christianity to be presented to yet another culture. It does not really matter if the Slavs were closer to the Greeks or Latins. What matters is that the Slavs were culturally a million miles away from the Greeks and a million and one miles away from the Latins. To suggest that the Slav and Arabic cultural aspects are too integrally fused with Byzantine Christianity to prevent us from presenting it to North America is illogical, given that the Greeks were successful in presenting it to the Slavs. If they did it, so can we.

Each ethnic group that accepted Byzantine Christianity influenced it and added to it. North Americans can do the same.

One necessarily preaches the Gospel using language. In our case the language is that of Byzantine Christianity. I think that language is very suited to speaking to North America. All we need to do is to welcome hamburgers, tamales and hunan chicken and give them equal space next to the holupki, baklava and kibbi.

Even if this is true, so what? I have no problem with North America taking Byzantine Christianity and transforming it into a uniquely North American (western cultural) experience of Byzantine Christianity. Look at the reverse example of Polish Roman Catholicism. It is an authentically Slavic experience of Roman Catholicism. The same is true for Vietnamese Roman Catholicism. Each group � both non-Western Europeans � took Latin Catholicism and made it their own (despite the rigid uniformity of Latin Catholicism). Each group added to Latin Catholicism and Latin Catholicism is richer because of them.

This is certainly possible. Even probable. Who cares? [And just how did you know I was wearing cowboy boots today? ]

The parish I spoke of is a Byzantine Orthodox parish.

I am not speaking here of attracting people from Western Liturgical Churches (such as the Anglicans). It is only right that they keep their present forms should they choose to unite with the Church.

I am speaking mainly about creating Byzantine communities that are attractive to the unchurched peoples of North America.

I am also speaking to those individuals who are already committed Christians who need to be brought into full communion with the Church.

I am seeking that we follow the example of SS Cyril and Methodius and present the Gospel to North America using the Byzantine form. Remember that it is the Latins who insisted that people adopt all things Latin. Byzantine Christianity is far more flexible. I think it is more adaptable to the North American culture than is Latin Catholicism.

I agree that Byzantine Christianity (where it is known at all) is perceived as an �ethnic enterprise�. This is why we must stop segregating ourselves from the rest of the North American society. It is not necessary that individuals give up their ethnicity. It is only necessary that they make room at the table for others, invite them and be hospitable to them as they come.

And? Look at the new churches being built in the American southwest. Many of them look more Greek and Arabic than Slavic. This only makes sense since it is a desert environment. Just as the Slavs took the Greek round dome and made it pointy to shed the snow so, too, will North Americans alter the lesser traits of Byzantine Christianity to better fit with the North American culture. There is nothing wrong with that.

I have been addressing the issue at hand. I have been trying to get you to see past the pirohi and holupki. You admit that from where you stand the Byzantine Church and the Ukrainian ethnicity are so intertwined that you can�t separate the two. Yet the Greeks were able to give you Christ without all of the Greek cultural aspects. I challenge you to stop believing that it can�t be done and to work at doing it.

Because some people just don�t like holupki and pirohi!

Why should anyone be forced to become a Slav to worship Jesus Christ in our Churches?

Why can�t you join a Greek Orthodox parish and make a home there? [You probably could but you�d be forever homesick for all things Ukrainian.]

North Americans who visit Ukrainian (and other ethnic) parishes feel the same way. They are attracted but when they find they must embrace a particular ethnicity in order to be a member of a Church they walk away.

Byzantine Christianity has been embraced by many cultures. North America can embrace Byzantine Christianity and make it its own.

Admin

David Ignatius,

Thank you for this post. It exemplifies exactly what I have been suggesting. We should neither discriminate against people of other ethnicities nor segregate ourselves from the society at large. We should transform our parishes into communities where anyone who walks in the door feels at home.

Admin