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Dear Sharon,

There is no one who is more hospitable than me!

And people in my father-in-law's parish are complaining they've been putting on weight since they've been going there . . .

Alex

Dear Friends,

I wanted to thank the Administrator for igniting a new fire in me!!

Just now, I went out and met some neighbours (who are not Ukrainian) and they asked me if I knew a Ukrainian church with an English liturgy - I just got them the info and they're going to try it out!

There's just such a sense of having done something when you bring someone to our Church! But the last time I did that, the person went to the OCA and is now a priest there. We win some . . .

And now I'm challenging all the members of this Forum to go out in the next week and look for an opportunity to bring in one potential new member to your EC parish!

Lapsed Roman Catholics will do fine!

Let's get to it people!

Alex

Admin:

Right. And what I am saying is that, given limited time and resourses, some of us in the UGCC feel that it is our primary job to re-evangelize our kinsmen in Ukraine. You seem to be asking us to abandon that in favor of your vision. Otherwise you would not have commented that your evangelization efforts here would be "the best use" of our time and money.

I am on record as welcoming anyone from beyond the UGCC who wants to join the UGCC with open arms. However, just as Rome must accept all of us EC's for who we are, the newcomers to our UGCC parishes must accept us for who we are - a part of the Kyivan Church with all of its traditions and customs.

Then why don't you do what you think needs to be done and not drag us kicking and screaming into what is a long-shot proposition to begin with.

At least we have an indigenous base in Ukraine with which to work. Admit - if you dare - that you have no such foundation here.

Exactly. That's why we have to do what we can to help Ukraine now before the entire infrastucture that we have here in North America crumbles.

No, you don't. Otherwise you would not have made such a comment.

First of all, who are my neighbors? Those who live 30 miles from the nearest Byzantine Church or the yuppies like me in my condo building who I don't even see? Certainly you are not asking us to jeopardize our careers and start preaching at work, are you?

Be that as it may - what does
"feel at home" mean, exactly? English liturgies? Many people smarter than me have already shown that this is NOT the magic wand.

As I mentioned above, "feeling at home" to you means giving up certain aspects of who we are and what we do. Oh, and don't start with superficial things like food and square dances in the Church hall. Put burritos and kim-chee in your Easter basket for all I care.

But find in those people a deep-rooted "from the cradle" emotional connection to the land of my forefathers and then, and only then, will they "feel at home" in the UGCC.

What you are asking us to do, sir, is to purge ourselves of who we are. You are going to the very essence of our being. Whether that's good, bad or indifferent, I don't know. But it is what it is.

Now, am I promoting open hostility to newcomers? Of course not. Still, anyone joining ANY organization wherein people have been together for years and decades will have a very hard time becoming "one of the crowd."

Take a parish choir, for instance. They've been singing together for years, everyone's on a first name basis, they know each other's sound and can probably do a DL in their sleep. In comes a new member transferring from a parish of the same jurisdiction. Don't you think it will take a good, long while to make this person feel "at home" among the folks who have been together for 20, 25, or 30 years?

When I was in law school in Philly and attended GO services in Center City, they bent over backwards to make me try and feel welcome - inviting me downstairs for post-service coffee or meals and generally good coversation. Guess what? When push came to shove, I still felt like an outsider becasue, quite frankly, I was. Whatever they did they could not change the fact that they were ethnically Greek and cradle members of the Greek Orthodox Church. I was not.

Anyone who walks into an ethnically-based Church will, by definition be in the minority. There always was and always will be a certain level of discomfort that people soon realize will NEVER go away.

The only way to make an ethnically-neutral North American feel comfortable in a Byzantine Church would be to start from complete scratch. That, of course, is impossible becasue to have a legitimate clergy they would have had to come from somewhere.

Yours,

hal

Dear Hal,

I think I understand where you are coming from!

But I also think you are unnecessarily hard on the Administrator on a number of points.

He is doing things the American way - there's a problem, you assess it, make a plan to address it and put it into action.

Ukrainians don't do things that way which is why, unfortunately, we get into the kind of quagmire we find ourselves in, today and throughout history. Just my observation!

Perhaps the single Byzantine jurisdiction plan isn't workable right now. But I see it reflected in a new ecclesial paradigm that is fast becoming part of the UGCC church life - and our Patriarch himself recommended English language liturgies and even parishes!

When he was in Toronto, he praised loudly Fr. Tataryn of St Demetrius Church and said his church is a model for other parishes. And why? Not just because they have a strong organizational infrastructure, but also because they don't turn anyone away because they're not Ukie. They have English liturgies etc.

Our two parishes have a common strong cultural identity.

I've never been in your parish, but I can tell you mine is wearing down. Youth come to it (usually Plast) because that is their "church" and they do so out of a sense of loyalty that has precious little to do with religious loyalty.

And why do we have to "hit a post" before knowing it is there?

I'm not saying that everything the Administrator says is applicable to our Church, but, for heavens' sake, let's get our heads out of the "Chornozem" and smell the borscht!

Rather than cross swords with the Administrator, let's talk about what we can do in our parishes (and there are different kinds of parishes, as you know) in which we can: a) hang on to our youth, whether they belong to PLAST or not; b) get other, non-Ukies interested in joining us.

Didn't our forefathers here see themselves as "ambassadors" for the Ukrainian cause? What better way to inform the public than from within our Church?

Enough with the dominance of the old guard in our parishes! The UGCC belongs to us too, not only to them.

Where are our youth? The one parish I know that has them in droves is St Demetrius here. They come out for the Midnight Services at Christmas and Easter. They feel it is "their" Church."

Let's not fault the Administrator for taking the initiative.

He takes an American-style initiative because he is an American - nothing wrong with that. I never once read that he demanded total acceptance of everything he has outlined.

And I really thought your rejoinder to him, Counselor, about "money" was unbecoming and really out of character for you who is much more intelligent and educated than that!

God bless you!

Alex

Alex:

Aren't yourself too hard on my companero?

Remember, a lawyer's opinion is worth nothing UNLESS paid for!

(Or, perhaps, the law schools in Philly are just different? )

Amado

Dear Amado,

Well, if you say so . . .

We Ukies tend to be hard on those who criticize us etc.

I know I am.

But what the Administrator is talking about makes sense and it's high time someone started talking about our future.

I learned a great deal from this thread and from the Administrator.

We need to learn more and to start acting on all the information.

Alex

Dear Alex:

I recognize the problem as well. After all, as you have so aptly surmised, I am a lawyer who was educated in the Anglo-American legal system and all the problem-solving skills that go with it.

However, as my record of reported judicial opinions I trust shows, I was also trained to recognize what battles are worth fighting.

In this case, I am taking issue with the Administrator becasue I beleive that he is living a pipe-dream of competing (yes, competing) with the RC's, the Protestants and the Mormons with a system of beliefs and practices that, frankly, constantly butts heads with what is the American mainstream.

Furthermore, the Hon. Administrator seems to feel disdain for the fact that we as a Church might not share in his optimism and will not give up on the mother Church and join his cause lock, stock and jurisdictional barrel.

Can we work together to be ambassadors of our common religious heritage? Sure.

But if this means giving up jurisdictional ties to Kyiv and forgetting that one of our primary goals must be to help re-build over there, then our raison d'etre is gone (pardon my French spelling if its' wrong).

You yourself are involved in bringing young people back into the Ukrainian fold. I personally think your detractors are full of dung. Your school for non-Ukrainian or weak-Ukrainian speakers should be a model for all of our communities.

So why give up on our Church just yet and sever ties to Kyiv?

Extending my left hand,

CKOG!

hal, "Chervona Kalyna" (just like His Beatitude)

Dear Admin:

Our brother Alex has made me see that I have crossed the line and caused offense. Please accept my sincere and public plea for forgiveness.

Yours,

hal

This is a very interesting conversation. As a black american whose people have been here over 200 years ( native american ancestors for longer than that) I have mixed feelings about all this. For generations my family have been members of black southern baptist churches that are obviously steeped in black culture. Yes, it makes them unique and there are aspects of black culutre I wouldn't want to see watered down by masses of even blacks from other countries. But, the purpose of a church is not culture, so if whites, africans, carribean folks swarmed into black churches in such a way that within a generation it would not be the same, so be it. I would suggest that blacks and any other ethnic group that dont want to lose cultural aspects meet outside of church to pass them on,and preserve them etc.

Since I already come from a distinct ethnic background that is available to m e, I don't really desire to take on another one just to be part of a church. I have no problem with Ruethenian style chanting or the fact that the style of Bulgarian icons is different from Greek, but I don't want to be expected to participate in nationalistic thinking and argue over whose food or customs are better etc.or have to learn another language to participate. If I were in an Icelandic church in Iceland, yeah, I better learn to speak Icelandic, but outside of Iceland that's simply cultural nostalgia. I'm bilingual so I well understand that it's easier to worship in your native language. But know that once newly arrived immigrants no longer make up the congregation it will die if the church persists in holding services in Icelandic for nostalgic reasons.

If I were like most white americans whose ethnic roots have long been drowned out belonging to a church with strong ethnic ties might be "fun" and "exciting". IF I were an immigrant far away from varied assortment of my own people it wouldn't matter to me if a church were predominantly anglo or ethnic because I have no ties to either one.As an immigrant I wouldn't even be aware that it's strange or different.

I often think it would be better not to make money on church grounds, but hold bakeoffs,bazaars elsewhere so churches don't get aassociated with specific cultures. It is too easy to get tied to culture and miss the whole point of church. In the United States because so many cultures are here,that any church holding onto to ethnic identity will die out or be assimilated within two generations. That is a given.

So, as an ethnic american I understand the longing and cultural hold of food and customs and ,in spite of that, I still say church is about God and not culture.

Please forgive any offenses for I mean none.

Peace,
Indigo

Dear Indigo,

I agree with you and the Administrator on this one. Those Ukrainian choir members who have been there for 25 or more years will very soon start exiting for the heavenly realms. Who will be there to replace them in the USA?

The mainstream is exactly NOT what we want to be. Many of the mainstream Protestant churches are declining in numbers. Very little fire there. It is a strong and vibrant faith that we must kindle. The riches of the Eastern Churches tradition is exactly what sets people on fire when they become educated to its existence. Many newcomers have come to seek out the ancient traditions, the Divine Liturgy, icons, the Eucharist, chant, on and on I could go. But as someone else said on a similar thread a few days ago, a handshake and welcome do wonders. Along with someone to step in and assist visitors in knowing how to do everything that is unfamiliar. These are the reasons I have visited an EC parish numerous times and continue to when I have the opportunity, IN SPITE of some prayers in languages that are, pardon the pun, "Greek to me", and IN SPITE of feeling very misplaced when certain ethnic festivities get underway.

Those ethnic festivities are great fun. Many Americans become Irish on St. Patrick's Day, or Mexican on Cinco de Mayo. There is nothing wrong with that. But there is no question that overdoing it with our ethnic buddies gets in the way of evangelization at times. I think the fun should stay as long as the parish appreciates it, but that times immediately before and after DL, and of course during, ought to be directed to Our Lord in prayer, and our neighbor in welcoming love and respect.

In Christ and the Theotokos,

Tammy

Dear Hal,

You are a complete gentleman.

I wish we had you here in our Eparchy as a voice of reason and balance.

My detractors here (not on this Forum! ) are going to try and fry me alive for what we are doing with our new school.

But I'm willing to do it anyway, for our Church and community.

God bless you and have a great weekend.

Alex

Dear Indigo and Still, Small Voice,

Important points all!

But culture will always be with our religious expression, nomatter what.

The issue is to ensure that our culture is as inclusive of others as possible.

And the Administrator has never said we need to get rid of our cultures, whether they are Ukrainian, Ruthenian, Ethiopian or American etc.

They are all there to be enjoyed by us all!

On St Patrick's Day, we're all Irish!

Alex

Dear Indigo & Tammy,

I think that it is great that you both have found the Byzantine Christian rite / faith in the United States. The American Carpatho-Ruthenians Byzantine Catholic Church has clearly been a leader and good example for all to follow. I believe that they have laid the foundations for true American variant of the Byzantine Christian Catholic faith. Who knows what wonders it will provide over time.

Further, it is pure nonesense to believe that peoples of the West could not appreciate Christian Byzantium. For example, the French Roman Catholics built in the second half of the 19th century the Basilique Sacre Coeur de Montmartre on top of one of the few hills in Paris so that the magnificent Byzantine Shrine could be scene from miles away. Due to it's white colour (and it get brighter every year), some liken the Basilica to a pearl. It is also one of the most visited tourist sites in Paris.

Non Byzantines seem to also love those cupolas on the Western Canadian Prairies where so many small Ukrainian country churches were built over the past century. The provincial government goes out of it's way to fund the upkeep and / or restoration of so many of these historical churches because the tourist can't seem to get enough of them.

Also, Prince Charles of the United Kingdom seems to have taken a great liking to Greek Orthodox monasteries. Who knows, maybe he is seeking unification of his Church of England with that of Constantinople .

I could give you several other good examples of the appreciation that non Slav, Greek, or Arab Westerners have for Christian Byzantium, but I think you get the picture.

The UGCC is not devoid of non ethnic Ukrainians, and in some parishes there are significant numbers of non Slavs.

In most large urban cities (Toronto, Chicago, New York, etc..) however, we simply have not gone out of our way to recruit peoples who are not of Ukrainian heritage. The reason for this is that we have always believed that we had to remain insular to create a strong diaspora community which could generate the peoples, ideas, money, and energy to re-establish the Ukrainian nation and her churches.

Our motto has always been 'God & Ukraine' (including Carpatho-Ukraine / Rus). Please note the order of the words in the motto. If this seems like 'rabid nationalism', please remember that after WW2 our nation became a puppet state within the Soviet Union, our people were enslaved, and our church was made illegal by the communists. (BTW - I prefer Mexican food over perogies and borsht so maybe not as 'rabid' as previously thought ).

This need to combine church and state (and culture) has not vanished and will probably remain for at least another generation, or two. Until such time, Hal is absolutely correct in stating that our church will not cut ties to the Kyivan (Ukrainian) Patriarchate but will infact help to establish it. We can't abandon our native church or way of life ('rabid nationalism') because we are needed. You will be hard pressed to find people in our church who do not think this way.

The UGCC in many ways has not been as proactive as the American Byzantine Church in recruiting members. I spoke to a leading member of our community in Toronto who feels it would be no problem to double our Church's membership in 5 years if we would be willing to accept non-ethnic Ukrainians.

As Alex says, the challenge will be for us to determine how best to be inclusive without driving our own members away. For example, if we were to drop the word Ukrainian to make 'others' feel more welcome, 95% of our current adherants will transfer over to the Orthodox Church (so, there you go Alex, get them to change the name of the UGCC to something neutral and your Orthodox Church's adherance numbers will explode over night ). Therefore, the word Ukrainian will remain for some time to come even if you or other American / Canadians are not .

In any case, all Byzantine American Christians are welcome to attend our churches. If you happen to visit a UGCC parish and they ask you " are you Ukrainian ? " just say "in my heart" and you will be made to feel welcome. It may not be as welcoming as other jurisdictions, but hey, I'm sure you will get to like us.

And remember, if you do join the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, make sure you become a member of your local Church affiliated Ukrainian Bank and / or Credit Union and get up to 1.5% discount on your mortgage. plug

Hrizko

It seems to me that evangelizing North America is a task for all committed Christians of the Apostolic Churches.

It seems to me that we need to work on the basics within each of our communities. And those basics begin with forming a place where true community exists: a place where each one is welcomed, treasured, encouraged, and nurtured. It seems to me that would include the idea, the commitment, the feeling that this is a place where it is fun to be, a place where I want to come back, a place where we never have enough people to share what we've got--the place that is an ever-expanding, welcoming environment.

And, MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL, all of this--community building, people-encouragement, activities, etc.--must be rooted in a radical commitment to Jesus Christ and the spread of His Gospel, using the spiritual riches each of us has received in the Apostolic Church he has been placed in.

If we do these things, we will not only survive, but thrive. We will draw in lots of spiritually hungry and thirsty people to flesh out our communities.

If we focus on other things, if we let our communities become merely spiritual "filling stations" where people come but do not feel welcome or connected, if we focus on preserving alone without making our spiritual treasuries work for us and help us grow, we will perish, each in his own little enclave.

It seems to me that we've got a lot of "multi-tasking" to do: reaching in and reaching out; bringing out both old and new from our treasuries of faith; showing others why, at the root of all our activity, we are wildly in love with Jesus Christ and want to introduce others to that love as well as share our own love with them in community.

In Christ,

BOB