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Dear Friends,

I think that the desire of Ukrainian Catholics to maintain a specifically "Ukrainian Catholic" Church is about ties to the Mother Church, but even if those ties were largely absent, it would be about our own Ukrainian identity, even if we are residents of North America.

And there is nothing wrong with saying that. For many of us Ukies, our cultural identity is "Ukrainian" period. We are Canadian and U.S. citizens, yes, but the "substance" of what is our "self" in cultural terms is "Ukrainian" however we define that to be.

One problem, from the Administrator's position, is that our Ukrainian community here doesn't understand itself as a "Byzantine" Church at all in a "universal Byzantine" way.

It sees itself, first and foremost, as a "Ukrainian Church." The Rite this Church happens to use is quite incidental, but, yes, we do have a loyalty to "Eastern" ways.

When Valentyn Moroz came out of the Soviet prisons, he commented that Ukrainians don't know or care about the difference between "Catholic or Orthodox" Churches.

What they do care about is the difference between a "Ukrainian" and a "non-Ukrainian" Church.

There are so many traditions that we Ukies celebrate as part and parcel of our "Byzantine Rite" that it has truly made our Church unique. I've gone to Melkite and other Byzantine-Rite Churches - I don't know why, but it just doesn't "feel" like "my Church."

The Administrator, correctly and out of sincere concern, cites statistics as an indicator that we need to make room for English-language liturgies.

I'll say that he is right but also that, where the pastoral need is felt AND addressed (because a need could exist and it could be ignored), there ARE English language liturgies and in some of our parishes here in Toronto. We also have some Irish deacons - Blue and Yellow Irish (as opposed to "Black")!

What we have a problem with is the Administrator's contention, and it is a sincere and Christian one, to be sure, that ONLY by means of one single Byzantine jurisdiction can the common end that we both share (inclusion of non-ethnic people) into our parish communities can be realized.

Hal discussed our role in helping the Mother Church.

I will go further to say, as I know Hal and Hritzko would agree, that we feel ourselves here to be part and parcel of the Mother Church - period.

We're just not ready to assimilate and statistics will tell the story that reflects the interpreter.

If it can be shown that there is absolute causality between English language liturgies and the loss of members - but who can show that? It is simply specious reasoning whereby we ASSUME that to be the case.

And I'll say that unless someone can show me how Byzantine cupolas are in line with NA mainstream culture, the argument for one Byzantine jurisdiction just holds no water. The fact that there are some for whom this holds true does not tell the whole story, as St John Damascus said, "Just because a few sparrows have sung, does not mean the spring is here!"

There are Ukrainian parishes up here who have English-only liturgies to serve their English-only parishioners.

I have YET to here of a Ukrainian who doesn't speak Ukrainian actively promote an English liturgy!

We have Western Ukie Canadians in our parish that don't speak Ukrainian but INSIST on Ukrainian-language liturgies nomatter what - and this is because their ancestors were discriminated against by the Canadian government etc.

One fellow recently told me that he refuses to attend the new Ukrainian parish in Newmarket because it is English-only - "I just don't feel right about attending it." And he lives just around the corner from it and his spoken Ukrainian is virtually non-existent.

The fact that we are losing members etc. is seen by Ukrainians not with a sense of alarm but as part of the process of inevitable assimilation.

For them to become part of a "Byzantine NA Jurisdiction" would be to "throw in the towel" in advance.

But this is because we experience our Church as a "Ukrainian Church" first and foremost.

If we die, then what is Ukrainian dies with us. But we really won't compromise it.

Perhaps this is all anathema to the Administrator, but I would then suggest that he try and understand. If he can't, or won't, sorry, I'm just telling it like it is.

Kyivan/Ukrainian missionaries went into Siberia and converted the peoples there. Siberian saints were glorified under their tutelage, such as St Basil of Mangazea.

The missionaries returned to Kyiv with icons of St Basil and had him and others adopted as local, national saints, which they are.

There was one language then that everyone learned for church worship, Old Slavonic, but that is no longer the case.

I'm for keeping our Ukrainian Church, but, at the same time, for developing new ways to keep our members and attract other, non-Ukrainian ones.

There is no reason not to have English liturgies in the Ukrainian Church.

But the Ukrainian Church will, as far we are concerned, remain so.

Our martyrs weren't afraid of death. And we shouldn't be either. But the threat of it should spur us to work for a new resurrection of our Ukrainian Church among our people and in North America.

If we fail, then we will have failed our ancestors.

Sorry, Administrator, that this isn't quite your vision.

But it is one that I believe is right for the Ukrainian Church.

Alex

I think there is an important distinction to be made between those Greek Apostles to the Slavs and the spiritual and natural forebears of the Byzantine Churches in North America. Ss Cyril and Methodius set out to bring the Gospel to the Slavs. Bringing the Gospel was not a major factor for those Byzantine Christians who came to the Americas. Except for the Russian Orthodox in Alaska and the Pacific West, the Spanish Franciscans and Jesuits in Southwest and Central and South America, the French Jesuits in Canada and the midwest, preaching the Gospel was not part of the psyche of any immigrant group.

Having said that, the diaspora of the Jews from Palestine in the first century AD allowed the message of the Gospel to spread beyond the eastern shores of the Mediterranean. The time has come for the descendants of those Byzantine Christians (us) to follow in the footsteps of those North American Martyrs and Missionaries and live the Gospel in a society that is more hostile to the Gospel of Christ than any of those martyrs and missionaries could ever imagine. Many Eastern Christians use the term "diaspora" to refer to the situation of their respective Churches in the West. As the Jewish Christians of the East spread the Gospel west beyond their own culture and nationality in their diaspora, should we not do the same here in the Americas?

What makes North American souls any less worthy than Ukrainian ones?

No one wants your money. It costs nothing to invite your neighbor to join the Church for worship and social events. If you invite enough people there might even be more money to send to Ukraine!

Yes. I know this quite well. And I suspect that many would not feel comfortable living in Ukraine because it is not the Ukraine they know from their parents.

I was talking with a Ukrainian Catholic priest acquaintance of mine about this topic awhile back. He said that he was slowly preparing his parish for closure as he knew they would soon not be able to afford to pay a priest (it is already a small parish, the average age of the parishioners is over 70 and the parish has at least 20 funerals a year). He said he suggested to the people that when the parish closes they join the Byzantine Catholic parish two blocks away. Many of the people said that they would rather go to the Roman Catholic Church than to the Byzantine Catholic Church. Such a situation is easily reversed as there are communities where the Ukrainian Church will outlast the Ruthenian Church. And it exists within the rest of Orthodoxy as well.

Sadly, most ethnics would rather see their parishes close than welcome others. The Ukrainian Catholic Church is already looking to Ukraine for priests to supply the parishes here. But soon there will be no ethnic Ukrainians left to keep these parishes open. We Byzantines do not have a shortage of priests. Our real shortage is one of people.

Note: I just checked the census numbers. The 53% number I quoted earlier for the loss of people from the Toronto Diocese is incorrect. The loss from 1990-2004 is actually 48%. The population is now 52% of what it was in 1990.

Hospitality and/or evangelization goes beyond 'hello', a handshake, or even asking them "Are you familiar with our Divine Liturgy?" --all of which are fine. It means inviting, 'staying with', caring, smiling, listening, talking, asking, answering, sometimes feeding, and including - most of all -- including so that visitors don't feel they have come upon a private family gathering where they are on the outside looking in....Christ stands at the door and knocks and we never know when we are letting Him in.

Peace and joy,

Mary Jo aka Porter

Dear Administrator,

Of course older people will try to keep their churches alive for as long as they can, after all those temples are all they know. Often the children move on to big cities, other parts of the country, or they just 'vanish'. It's not always possible to keep the children in their childhood churches. Perhaps they accepted that no new Ukrainian immigration will come and so they have made plans to liquidate the parish's assets when the time comes, and forward the proceeds to the eparchy to strengthen the church elsewhere. Or, maybe they are just drifting as many elderly people do waiting for a priest to arrive from Ukraine or their children to come home . Older people think differently than do the young.

My mother is Canadian born of immigrant Ukrainian parents, and my father is 'off the boat' from the old country. By your standards both are 'rabid nationalists' . If given the choice of going to a Roman Catholic or Carpatho-Ruthenian Catholic Church, I'm 100% certain that these lifetimer UCGG adherants would show up for your Divine Liturgy. I doubt if the term Ruthenian would turn either of my parents off. My mother's father (an immigrant from Galicia who would be 103 years old if he had lived) always refered to himself as a Ruthenian Catholic when speaking about his UGCC. The Ukrainian Church in Montreal in which my grandparents were married in 1929 has the word 'Ruthenian' on the corner stone, yet the parish was founded by Galicians (Metropolitan Sheptytsky). In Canada the Ruthenian / Ukrainian church was never divided so they would just see this separate Carpatho-Ruthenian Church in the USA as a Ukrainian Carpathian Church. :p which has decided to go it alone and use the older relgious term for Ukrainians . Kind of like a 'California' Church instead of 'USA', or an 'Ontario' Church instead of 'Canadian'. If my parents met someone in your parish who was 103 years old and who was from the old country, they would probably have a great conversation with them - in Ukrainian and be perfectly 100% understood.

I'm not sure why the UGCC parish members you mentioned do not want to come to your church once theirs closes. Perhaps they have plans on attending a local Ukrainian Orthodox Church. Perhaps they have plans on attending a UGCC parish in a town close by, or perhaps your specific parish has been so Latinized and/or Anglicized that they have just said "why bother ?". These would all be logical questions and / or choices for my parents, AND ME !

I think perhaps it's time for the Ruthenian Byzantines to start opening up - not the other way around. Your positioning statement can't be 'we are anti-Ukrainian' when in fact the VAST majority of Carpatho-Rusyns, including those from Hutsulschyna, Boijkivschyna, Lemkivschyna, Mukachivschyna, and other parts of the Carpathian mountains now identify themselves as Ukrainian - period. I would even venture to say that Priashivschyna in Slovakia is not as anti-Ukrainian as you may think.

The statistics you mentioned for the UGCC Eparchy of Toronto & all of Eastern Canada are troubling and should be discussed, and solution needs to be found to correct the situation. The churches in metropolitan Toronto seem to be full on Sundays - so my brother says. Even Montreal which lost a lot of young Ukrainians due to the French Canadian separatist threat seems to have relatively good attendance on Sundays.

In any event, I can tell you with assurance that my, Hal's, and Alex's position is congruent with most Ukrainians in Toronto and Eastern Canada. 'Pan Byzantine Catholicism' is the fast road to complete assimmilation which is something we do not want. I do believe however that our churches, youth camps, and banks (remember a 1.5% savings is big buck on a mortgage) can be opened up to non ethinic Ukrainians who wish to join our church. Further, even with limited resources, we are open to cooperating with other Byzantine Catholic churches to a limited degree on specific projects, but our main foccus is helping the Kyivan Church.

The Slovak Greek Catholics now number 1500 in all of Canada (from 11,000 ten years ago) so perhaps comparably the UGCC is doing well. We have got to do more to help them. I'm not sure why they separated in the first place.

Hritzko

Dear Admin:

I don't know. You were the one who said it would be a better use of resourses to devote them to evangelization of the culturally-neutrals.

The fact is, if we here don't help Ukrain, no one will. So why not just let us do our thing and you can do your thing.

We're not hurting each other, are we?

Of course you do! Outreach efforts, whatever their shape and form - like anything else in this world, cost money.

As for inviting people to attend, as far as I'm concerned they are more than welcome. They just have to understand that our religious idenitiy is tied to our ehtnic identity and that the Ukrainian-isms in our Church are there to stay.

If they like the East enough and want something else, then I'm sure your Church or the OCA would suit them nicely.

Yours,

hal

If it hadn't impacted me so personally, perhaps this wouldn't bother me as much as it does.

This sort of attitude explains the reponse I got from some parishioners of the local Ukrainian parish: "Your name is Brown? What are you doing here?" Not said jokingly...they were serious. I knew that no matter how much I tried I could never "fit in" at that parish. I was an outsider.

The Church is not a social club. "Inviting people to come" does not equal "they are more than welcome." Inviting people to come means reaching out to the local neighborhood in a positive way.

Let me cite the experience I had visiting the Coptic parish in Arizona. For the most part, the Copts at that parish were first and second generation from Egypt. One evening 3 of us Americans visited the parish for Liturgy. Normally, most of the Liturgy was done in Coptic or Arabic. But, because we were there (in a crowd of about 100), the priest started doing about 2/3 of the Liturgy in English for our benefit. After Liturgy almost everyone came up to greet us and were anxious to answer any questions we had.

This parish meets only 2 blocks from my parents home and I visited there for about 3 weeks in a row. After the 3rd visit, the priest was asking us if we wanted to enter the Church!

This is a parish that does not denigrate their Coptic heritage. Every Saturday there are Coptic language lessons for the kids. But, religious ed is in English because that's the language the kids (the 2nd generation) are learning at school. Much of the Liturgy is already done in English at the parish now. There is a strong family presence at the parish with plenty of kids running around.

Soon after meeting the Copts we went to a "Food Fair" at a park in this city's downtown. The Coptic parish was there among the various restaurants and other churches with a booth. Besides food, kids could get their name written in hieroglyphics from the Coptic booth. Of course, there were flyers describing the parish available at the booth. The parish celebrated their heritage but took it to another place to reach out to the locals.

Fr Tadros Y. Malaty describes the Coptic vision outside of Egypt in _Introduction to the Coptic Orthodox Church_:

From my experiences among the Copts I would say they are being quite successful in making the transition from being an immigrant Church to being an evangelizing church here in this country.

Dear Administrator,

Yes, I know that the Ukies would not feel comfortable living in Ukraine today!

No one from North America really would, unless they are sent their on a job contract working for a large multinational corporation or something like that.

I'm not defending their attitude of "going down with the ship."

I'm just saying that that is what it is.

Taking the "Ukrainian Church" paradigm and applying it to what you said, we can see why the Ukies would rather go to an RC church rather than to a Ruthenian one.

The RC Church is "culturally-neutral" - and the Ukies perceive the Ruthenians to be culturally-specific. This is also why, in Ukraine after 1946, the Ukrainian Catholics went over to the RC Church, not so much because it was "Catholic" but because they felt they, as a group, would not be threatened as they would be in the ROC.

The word "ethnics" that you use is actually not the case with Ukrainians and others.

There is a distinction between "citizens" and "cultural/national identity." One may live in one country but continue to maintain the cultural identity of another, as happens all the time in Europe and around the world.

Ukrainians and others here are not "ethnics" since their identity is not somehow "subcultural" to the mainstream one. They are not part of the cultural mainstream and have no wish to be, as we know.

The reasons why people choose to leave their Eastern Church, unfortunately, go beyond the simplistic "we can fix it now" proposals that involve bringing in English and trying to entice membership from the non-ethnic populace. I'm positive a lot could be accomplished with English liturgies and greater inclusiveness, but that's not the whole story with the UGCC.

As you've shown my earlier analysis to be correct, the issue of "rite" is incidental to Ukrainians who see their Church to be "Ukrainian" first and foremost. That they will go to an RC Church when their own closes shows this is so.

This is also why, when non-Ukrainians come into a very Ukrainian parish, the parishioners think "Why don't they go to an English Church?" The issue of Byzantine/Roman just doesn't enter into the matter.

Again, for them the language indicates one's cultural identity when used in a specific context like religion. This is because, as we know from the history of the Eastern Churches, that the Church was often the most relevant institution that defended the rights of the people and protected their identity from being taken over by a foreign, imperial power, whether Muslim, Roman Catholic or other Orthodox.

To pray in English would be, for them, an offense against "their" Church that would be unthinkable. For them to use English here in democratically free North America when their ancestors fought and died in defence of their cultural/national rights makes it all the more unpalatable.

I'm not saying whether this is right or wrong or something in between. I'm just describing what I think is the case with the UGCC in North America by way of trying to understand it.

Using this same paradigm, the Ukies would NOT be upset if parishes closed because of lack of people as much as they would be if their parishes became "Anglicized." To many of them, the former is the more "honourable" option.

So when you bring forward valid statistics of closure and predictions of future closings - that just doesn't upset the Ukrainians, amazing, but true.

I know that something must be done to save our Church, but I speak as someone who wants our Church to survive in North America and who sees it as having its own legitimate right to develop outside the context of the Mother Church.

One problem with the new immigrants from Ukraine is that they are, in a sense, aggravating the issue of looking to Ukraine rather than to the North American context. These new immigrants publish newspapers and work in the Ukrainian language media.

But what do they talk about? The situation in Ukraine almost exclusively. They even get news feeds from Ukrainian government sources to let us know what the latest debates in the Kyivan Parliament are all about (as if we needed to know!).

The issue of language retention is not an issue for these people for whom Ukrainian (in a Russified version, I will add) is their first language. The Canadian history of Ukrainians is irrelevant to them, as it would be, but that is no excuse for ignoring the Ukrainians who have been here for over a century.

And the "old guard" just loves them, even though, as you said, they would feel ill at ease in Ukraine, find their Russified Ukrainian difficult to take, and have other issues with them. The new immigrants reignite the old guard's ties to the old country - even though the "old counry" has undergone quite a modern transformation.

And yet, the new immigrants from Ukraine learn English very quickly when they arrive here and adapt to the new continent in a way that the old guard has yet to . . .

And then there still remains the issue of mainstream religion vs subcultural religion that we have not touched. You yourself refuse to consider it but it is an important factor.

I know from experience that there are many Ukies who leave their Church for a mainstream church, such as the RCC because it IS mainstream.

And part of this phenomenon has to do with the way Ukrainian Catholics are trained as "Catholics" and are told in what ways they are not "like the Orthodox" and for this (belonging to the "true Church) they are Catholics first and foremost when it comes to religious faith.

Our Basilians and others have taught our people that it is because of their Catholicism and being under the Pope that their Ukrainian identity was preserved. It was preserved free from the "taint" of Russification and also from Polonization (since the Rite was different).

And when our young people find their Church to be "too different" from that of the mainstream, they go over to the RC's, rather than to Orthodoxy, as you have correctly assessed.

And our Ukrainian Orthodox people, when they assimilate, don't join another Orthodox body. No, they join a Protestant church, like the United Church of Canada, which is again culturally-neutral. And they've been trained in anti-Catholic attitudes for too long to consider the RCC.

For these reasons and observations, I don't believe that a single Byzantine jurisdiction will fly with the Ukies and probably with some others who share a similar attitude.

I don't know how things are in the U.S., but whenever cultural groups feel they are "under seige" they band together and become more intransigent about their cultural identity.

I know that the Ukie Catholics and Orthodox in Quebec are like that - they are surrounded by RC's as the Ukies were in western Ukraine under Poland. The same dynamics occur in both contexts.

And the refusal to use English liturgies is NOT only a factor of the old guard hanging on to old ways.

The descendants of the Ukrainian pioneers in North America today are among the most active in the Ukrainian church and community - and because of historic discrimination in the struggle to preserve their identity, they insist on Ukrainian in the liturgy even when they don't speak the language well themselves. And I've seen this often enough over the last thirty years.

The issue of Ukrainian identity has NOTHING to do with living in the country of cultural origin.

As one professor (Dr. W.W. Isajiw) wrote in an article on the subject, one can "feel Ukrainian" by merely having a psychological connection to Ukrainian culture or community. Ukraine itself figures nowhere in that, although these Ukrainians more often than not WANT to travel to Ukraine to do something to "help" over there.

I therefore think that the single Byzantine Jurisdiction idea is a non-starter here.

The most that can be hoped for is for the "modernization" of the Ukrainian parishes as much as possible, with English liturgies interspersed with Ukrainian ones and the influx of young people into the parish leadership.

The dominance of the "old people" in the parishes and their refusal to let young people have a say or participate is scandalous, but our priests let them because the elderly are the ones who pay the bills and keep them in new riassas.

But this is changing, even though young people now don't want to enter parish life in many parishes because they feel "you can't fight city hall" and the elderly will have their way.

To leave such a Church is like leaving home from under one's parental control. It is almost a "sine qua non" of "growing up" spiritually.

I attend a Church that is very "old guard" and where the old folks, well-intentioned as they are, will boss you around.

As the Epitaphion was going around the church one Great Friday, and elderly gentleman got out of his pew and started to order people to back away so that the priests could get by.

He looked at me sternly and told me to move back, which I did as I was blocking the way.

But afterwards, as the priests went by, the old fellow then looked at me again and with a gesture of his hand told me to move back to where I was . . .

I think we can save the UGCC from extinction here and I'm going to do my best.

But it won't involve a single Byzantine jurisdiction. The Ukrainians would rather go RC than do that, unfortunately.

Alex

Dear Father Deacon Montalvo,

Excellent!

Again, I don't know how far we can involve the "evangelization" paradigm when discussing about the cultural factors of our Churches.

Speaking for my own, the issue is the maintenance of a "Ukrainian Church" rather than preaching the Gospel - since there are so many other Churches out there that are doing that.

In addition, the alienation that these Churches feel with respect to the cultural mainstream, an alienation that is also self-induced, would prevent them from seeing a vision of evangelization to non-community members.

Alex

Dear Alex,

I would agree that many of the older North American born UGCC members would select a Roman Catholic Church as an alternative if theirs was to close. Even before the churches close, some attend RC for a variety of reasons including proximity to their residence, intermarriage of their children, etc...

The post WW2 Ukrainian immigrants are of a completely different mind set and would most definitely seek out a Ukrainian Orthodox Church in lieu of their own. The fact remains that in Canada, there usually are more UGCC churches than UOC, and this means if the UGCC is doing poorly, so is the UOC (usually dies out / closes first).

Hritzko

Dear Hritzko,

But the point is what can we do to prevent our Church's untimely demise here?

The Administrator's heart is in the right place when he raises these issues (I still don't like him saying I'm copping out though . . . .

He wants what is best for our UGCC as well.

Perhaps he secretly wants to join our Church and is waiting for more English liturgies to make their presence felt?

Yes, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Canada only has about 10,000 remaining registered members and UOC priests are thinking about jumping shipt to other Orthodox jurisdictions.

And that is a real shame.

Our Lord said that when our eye is a source of temptation, better we should pluck it out than that the whole body of ours should be thrown into the flames.

If we can reverse these trends by plucking out a few eyes here and there, why shouldn't we?

Perhaps we can hire the Administrator as a church restoration consultant or something to get the ball rolling.

Cheers!

Alex

I am not forcing you to do anything. I am merely speaking to the Lord�s command for us to evangelize. My Byzantine Catholic (Ruthenian) Church is as guilty as your Ukrainian Catholic Church in its lack of evangelism.

The fact is, that there will soon be no one left in the Ukrainian Catholic Church left to help Ukraine. But I understand it is more important to be Ukrainian then to invite your neighbors and make them feel at home.

How much money does it cost to knock on your neighbor�s door, invite them and then put on a pot of coffee after the service?

Yes, I understand the tying of religious identity to ethnic identity. Those who wish to worship Ukraine are welcome. Those who wish to worship Jesus should go somewhere else where they are welcomed and wanted.

David Ignatius spoke of the evangelistic zeal of the Coptic Orthodox. The Coptic parish in my town also evangelizes. They have at least one or two open houses each month and now use English in the Divine Liturgy to attract newcomers along with an �Inquirer�s Class� one Saturday each month. I admire them greatly. Here are a people who are possible the most persecuted Christians in history placing evangelization on a par with helping the old country. In a generation or so the Church they are building will be a very strong American voice for Coptic Orthodoxy and the plight of their people in Egypt. It can become a mainstream Church here in America.

�

Alex, I have considered it. The solution is to keep bringing people into the Byzantine Church until it is the mainstream Church!

Dear Administrator,

This thread has helped me put things in perspective by walking through the issues as I've come to know them.

You are right. Our Holy Eastern Catholic Church has so much to offer Western people, churched, unchurched, what-have-you.

God has put us here through our ancestors to share His Gospel and our Church's spirituality of the Glory of the Holy Trinity, the Resurrection of our Lord and the praise of the Theotokos and the Saints - not to keep it to ourselves.

We bring to this enterprise our respective Church traditions, Ruthenian, Ukrainian, Melkite etc.

But in the end, we are called to renew North America, just as our ancestors were missionaries to Siberia, Alaska, California, China and the like.

I know I'm not doing enough, but I just don't have the savvy to do all that can be done.

A few interviews and teaching in a religion school aren't enough.

What can someone like me do, what can we all do?

Let's start talking pro-active and I would love your practical suggestions on approaches, actions and the like.

Yes, it's time for us to get to work to save our Church and her witness here in North America.

Our ancestors didn't build all those churches for them to be museums, after all.

I'm done talking. I will listen and start doing!

Thank you for your cordial and aggressive style of discussion, Administrator.

What you want for our Church is what we should all want.

(And am I still under interdict or can I come back fully to the forum - with the proviso of good behaviour, of course. But look how many nice things I've said about you! )

But, from now on, I want to use this forum as a medium by which to learn how to do things and then to report back on how successful things have been with further questions on more advice.

Alex

I think it needs to be said also that the Copts and the Melkites come from a part of the world where hospitality is still held to be sacred.

Makes a difference.


Sharon