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We are told that faith is a gift, what happens if the gift is lost or taken away? I keep finding myself saying what's the use. God seems to no longer care for the world or the church. I have personal experience with clerical abuse and still suffer the effects. Where is God in that? Where is God in the response of the bishops and the Church to abuse? Where is God in our world with all of the pain, suffering, hunger and war? Where is God in the self righteous people who make up our parishes and goverments? I cannot for the life of me see the hand of God in any of this, for good or ill. Where is God in this board? I see the hatred expressed by some members, the fighting over pews, language, ethnicity, jurisdiction, a movie, sexuality, etc., where is God in this? More and more I am seeing myself become a deist in thought. If there is a God, then He seems to have set things in motion then left us to get along the best we can...and we have messed up everything. Anamchristi

Christ is Risen!
Indeed, He is Risen!

The book, On Prayer, by Fr. Sophrony.
E D

Hi, Anam.

I just had this discussion last night with an agnostic, although he has not had as much direct suffering as yourself.

God created us free, and sometimes we use our free will wrongly, but the omnipotent God can always bring good out of evil if we allow Him to.

It sounds like you are afflicted with depression, which can be very crippling and spiritually damaging. Bring all of your sorrows to the foot of the cross--Mary of the Sorrows will receive you more tenderly than even your own mother could.

When looking for the hand of God in suffering, the Cross has many lessons.

God is very gentle and does not break the bruised reed. Only His omnipotence can heal you. Open yourself up to that healing--even He cannot give it to you otherwise.

God bless you--may you rise with Christ out of your sufferings.

LatinTrad

I have read enough books and consulted enough "holy people", yet still no one can tell me where God can be found in all of this. I'm tired of pious talk telling me to "offer it up", sorry Latin Trad, that kind of talk gives me no answers and offers no consolation, maybe I have developed a tolerance to the spiritual opiates such as what you suggest? They cloud the mind, but offer no substance. Anamchristi

Dear Anamchristi,

Yes, the feelings that you are having are, in the first instance, both legitimate and part of God's plan!

To tell God, "Where are You?" "How can You let this happen?" "Why do You hide Yourself in my suffering and turmoil?" - all this is legitimate prayer and part of the healing process itself, as we also know from the psalms.

C.S.Lewis was an atheist and even publicly debated with Christians in his university.

His final argument that he felt was the "clincher" was that the world didn't make sense.

But, one day, as he was walking to one of his debates, he understood that if the world DIDN'T make sense, then he, as part of it, would never know whether it did or not.

In other words, to say "the world doesn't make sense" is to express a way of making sense of it.

This is what converted Lewis to belief in God.

The pain that we feel, and, please believe me, I'm feeling some right now over a matter I don't care to go into, often elicits negative reactions toward our faith and even God.

This is God's radical way of getting us to converse with Him at a deeper level, to get us to realize even more than before our total reliance on Him, and that the enterprise of faith is one that involves faith when we suffer, and not just when we are comfortable with the way things are.

This is meant to provoke action on our part, action that should also be concerned with building up and healing - and not leaving.

In moments like these, I meditate on Christ in the Garden, sweating great drops of His Blood, but praying even more earnestly precisely because of the pain and suffering of the moment.

And as for the people in the Church who mess things up, please read and meditate on Matthew 13:24-30.

Don't even respond here when you read this, but go and pick up your Bible immediately and read that passage.

Then we can talk further.

Alex

Dear suffering soul,

Your searching is indeed precious to God. You stated that you had once had faith and lost it. You haven't lost it. The searching that compels you to seek out answers on this forum is evidence that you are close to our Lord. A loss of faith comes about by our own rejection of it, not by an evident absence of God. Faith is the evidence of things NOT SEEN. Keep seeking, and know that the prayers of many on this forum are with you.

In addition, you may be suffering from depression or some other chemical imbalance that affects your perceptions. Medical help may be in order. Do not neglect this, as it is not your fault, and you cannot find your way to healing alone, if this is indeed the case.

The love and resurrection of Christ be with you! Please stay with us and keep us posted. Kind and loving people here on this forum care about you. Perhaps a loving priest will send a private message of counsel to you. Allow the Body of Christ to strengthen you in your need. Peace of soul to you, Tammy

Orthodox Catholic, I've read the Bible cover to cover, studied it in seminary and at the moment the only true thing I remember reading is from one of the prophets..."you duped O Lord, and I let myself be duped". If the Church is truly the Bride of Christ as we are told she is to be, then she is one helluva bride! Look at the state of the Church today! I have been intimately involved in the church, both as layman and cleric, and I see nothing that leads me to believe her to be the Bride of Christ any longer. Too many lies, too many broken lives, too much concern with the status quo and too little concern for those who suffer from her sins. No, it isn't depression, it is anger and righteous indignation. I have seen too many whose lives are forever twisted and crushed because priests and bishops abused the trust placed in them. Rome does nothing, except to try to shift blame. The American bishops refuse to accept their share of the blame, by covering up these crimes, refusing to meet with those who have suffered, fighting them tooth and nail in court, moving guilty clerics and lay staff from parish to parish in an attempt to cover up. There is much to answer for!

Dear Anamchristi,

I feel for your pain. Please remember that we are all sinners, whether we hold titles of apostolic succession, or are mere lay persons. Also the biggest sinners are always closest to the Church, the Body of Christ...for remember even Christ had Judas by his side. The devil works through the weaknesses of us mortals, and unless one has seriously put on his daily 'armor' of prayer and repentance, he may very well become an unknowing disciple of evil. Every church has these persons to perpetrate evil upon others--and evil comes in many disguises. We are also living in very challenging times, with temptations of all sorts unleashed upon an increasingly relatively moral and hyper-tolerant society.

That is our fallen nature, unfortunately. All we can do is pray for our own salvation and not worry about the sins and evil of others, even if they have hurt us. We should, however, pray for them, for in doing so, not only do we liberate ourselves from the clutch their evil has had on us, but we wil be granted more graces than one can imagine. Forgiveness and love (through prayer)for one's neighbor is the ultimate healing medicine. Try it, even if you don't feel like it...many spiritual fathers in the East prescribe daily disciplines of prayer and prostrations for those who have fallen into despair and feel that God has turned His face from them. Also, prayers of a spiritual father/director/confessor can do wonders, as can the prayers of others for you.
May God restore your faith in Him, and know that many go through difficult times on their spiritual paths...you are not alone. It is, simply put, spiritual warfare, and prayer, even when you don't feel it, is the ultimate weapon for your faith and your sanity.

With Christian love for you, my brother,
Alice

Sorry, my friend. You got it all wrong. "People" seem to no longer care for the world or the church.

But even that is untrue. It would be unfair to include all the people.

I'd be more worried about those using religion and promises of virgins in the afterlife to convince innocent dupes to use themselves as human bombs ...

As for clerics screwing up the mission ... just contemplate the icon of the Ladder. Who are those robed persons falling off the ladder? Roofers?

As for bishops not doing their job ... just contemplate St. John Chrysostom's words about the road to Hell being paved with the skulls of bishops.

Tell me something I and/or others don't already know.

Many of us have been lied to and misled by clerical authorities. These same wolves hide behind their bishops because everyone knows they don't have b*lls.

But again, this would be an improper stereotype of all clerics and all bishops. Many have suffered for the faith; many have even died for the faith.

But can you just toss the litany of martyrs in File 13 just simply because you are having a bad day ???

Well, to quote Steve Martin, "Excuuuuuuuuuse meeeeee!!!"

I have become bitter too. And I have every reason to leave the church in total disgust. But I don't. I also don't want to be an opportunist looking for the highest bidder to ordain me. A church hopper in not a true convert.

Let me be straight with you ...

I was once a happy fella who enjoyed serving his church. Then I had to deal with a bunch of inept dolts that would even shock Dilbert and Dogbert for their inability to let the left hand know what the right hand was doing. And then they all get cool titles, new headgear, fancy religious jewelry for their profound blunders and failure to satisfy their fiduciary duties.

The Peter Principle at its best? Yup! A real royal *ss class act.

The straw that broke my camel's back was when I was still expected to finish papers by a certain date after my wife suffered a miscarriage and was experiencing horrible infections. Then I came to realize that their priority list of: FAMILY FIRST, JOB SECOND, MINISTY THIRD was a complete joke. This is only one of many examples. I did get better treatment and support from non-Catholics and anti-Catholics. They were more sincere. No smoke blowing where the sun don't shine. But some institutions just want dummies who don't question them about anything. Ever hear of the rubber stamp? They are sooooooooo easy to ordain.

I also learned never to expect apologies, just defensive listening and the like. Remember: its always YOUR problem, not clerics who lie or mislead. Nobody will take on a case of one who was treated wrongfully if their job promotion is at stake or if their pet has a particular office they approve. Its always better to dump the guy overboard and say nothing than to rock the boat.

Its been seven months since I withdrew from my church's deacon program. So far, I haven't received a response. No exit interview. No "Why?" I am beginning to wonder if my bishop even knows I left. Then again, who cares? It took three years to finally get accepted into the darn program since the last bishop never knew I applied! How in Hell do these things happen? You tell me.

The strength of any system of communication is as strong as its weakest link, especially if that link if the POV (point of contact) for vocations. In the end, its all a big joke; a farce. One only has to consider the idiots running the show and then it really does make sense.

You begin to feel pitty ...

So, one only moves on to better things that don't waste his/her time.

On a brighter note, I personally believe the Holy Spirit IS still around. Just look at the response to the Passion movie. People really DO want to see a good religious film. They DO like to talk about God. Unfortunately, we have become so crippled with our internal religious wars that we are slowly letting opportunities and duties slip bye.

Christianity is currently in a DEEP SLUMBER, not God.

The contemporary male has been beaten down to accept a Christianity that has become effeminate. Like any knee-jerk reaction, these same men just simply leave religion altogether (golf, fishing, or sports). Faggots, effeminates, and feminists have ruined what was once his spiritual home. He now finds home in the cathedrals of sports: the ballparks, the stadiums, the courts, and the rings. Large plasma screens have replaced prayer time.

Classic Christianity is one key to our recovery; not effeminate/feminist Christianity or Islami-fascism.

We need to turn back to God. We need a Great Awakening to our deep slumber. You're just hiding underneath the blankets for now.

Then ... one day ... someone or something ... will invite and/or prompt you to one big huge SYNERGISTIC contact with the Holy Spirit. And then _______________________________________!!!

(you fill in the blank)

Joe

Hey Anam,
Well, I think you are right. I like LT and enjoy reading things he writes because he teaches me about traditional Latin spirituality. However, you are right, the "offer it up" formula is just too pat and easy, especially in a case like yours. So, I see myself heading a bit down the path of J Thur. I would only add the following modification/s.
You are right: the intsitutional side of the Church is a mess. Conniving homosexuals, careerists, liars and embezzlers are thick in the ranks of our shepherds. The pews are full of time serving louts who are far more eager to make sure they get their slice of local parish power than that they should take on the likeness of Christ. This recent Pascha, my pregnant wife and four small children had to sit on the floor/stand because in our social hall, all the old time "ethnics" rushed in, moved Pashca baskets around, put name tags up "reserving" tables and shared...nothing. No space, no food, not even a Christ is Risen. They got all p.o'd when the blessing took to long, etc., etc., etc. So what's the point?
My friend, Christ is right there. He's right in front of you. He's deep in the abuse; He's smeared in the lies. He gets booted from the table; He gets hooted down when the blessing is too long. He is with you now. You _will_ see the Church as His Bride when you see Him where He is. I noticed in your posts you talked mostly about "God" and not about Christ. God is with us in Jesus of Nazareth, the rejected and executed Messiah. Go to Him in Jesus and you might just begin to see things differently. Meditate on the pain in your body and your soul; your disappointments and disillusionments. Stare deeply into all the Hell that fills your mind thanks to your painful experiences. And when your gorge begins to rise (or tears, whatever the case) then say outloud, "Is that you, Jesus?" He is there in spite of the sins of the Church because He came to us _in spite_ of ourselves. He loves you in spite of who you are, and the same goes for me. He is there and like the Propeht Hosea, his Bride is a whore (or at least sure looks like one from most angles). However, the love, the indescribable and unexpected love that comes from within and in spite of the pain (not in place of it) is that very love which will make this Gomer into the pure, spotless Virgin Bride that St. Paul describes.
Be on your guard, brother. Your combat, as you have described it to us here, is dire and if you really meant the things you said in your posts, you are in danger. May God grant you a spiritual father, blunt, honest, but tried and holy, very soon.
KH

Dear Anamchristi,

I couldn't agree more with you, Friend!

What you say is surely true and I've no wish to dispute it!

And I've also no wish to try and "teach" you anything about the Bible.

Only that in the passage I referred you to there is something that relates to what you've described.

If it isn't meaningful to you or if I've misjudged the quote's propriety for your situation - then I'm sorry.

But is there not much that is beautiful about the Church and her saints, both dead and living?

Is the Church totally ugly as a result of even widespread ugliness on the part of bishops and the like?

Are there no redeeming features in it?

Is Christ still not with it, as He promised?

He didn't promise that the Church will always be perfect, but He did promise to be with it until the end of time.

If anyone had reason to feel discouraged about humanity, I"m sure Christ did, especially on the Cross.

And I've no wish to disparage your feelings of anger - they can be put to good use in the righteous cause of God and His Church.

Did not God raise up many good and holy saints in history to reform His Church and bring it, as an institution, back on the right track?

Could you be one of such agent and what you are feeling right now a part of that process of your vocation?

But we are all with you in your pain and anger. I too feel angry about things that occur in the Church.

But I hope you will join me in remaining within it, despite the anger and anguish that we feel.

If you would like to vent or to say anything that you feel you would not say here, please feel free to e-mail me privately.

I promise not to preach to you, but to listen and only speak if you want me to in response.

Alex

Dear AnimaChristi, CHRIST IS RISEN! +May the Risen Lord Jesus bless you! I think Alice has a handle on the answer to your questioning: We are all sinners...all fallen...all less than we should be, but thanks be to God---the Church is suppose to be the 'Home of Sinners'! Didn't Our Blessed Lord Himself say, "I came not for the righteous, but to bring sinners to salvation"??? So here we are, sinners all! But try not to confuse the perfection of the Truth that Christ brought and that is taught by His Body (the Church) with those of us fallen members who make up that same Body.

Each day we rise and try to believe. Some days (when there's a beautiful warm Spring day WITH sunshine, it's easy)...other days, when it's cold and rainy and dark, it may be more difficult---but still we try to believe firmly and we should try to rely upon HIM and HIS truth to do so. St. Thomas too had difficulty believing...and even said, "I'll believe when I can see with my eyes and touch with my hands..." So let St. Thomas be your friend and ask him to help you daily to try and believe. His intercession will work wonders (it always does) for those of us who are weak and fallen! And don't give up on the Lord just because we so poorly represent Him. He loves you---even when you can't quite believe He's there!

In the Risen Lord Jesus,
+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who is praying for you!

KH really made some good points to ponder. His reference of the Prophet Hosea is good because the prophet's wife was a whore. I rolled my eyes about the nametag reservations. Oh brother!

I would like to know if anamchristi saw the Passion movie? Go see it. The boyfriend of one of my wife's coworkers (who is married with children, BTW) went to see it and then soon broke up with his fling on the side. The part about the woman caught in adultery struck a nerve. Though it may be so tempting to point the finger at everyone (we all tend to do that), there is something in Christ's message that points the finger at us. Obviously, the movie changed this man's life. His fling refuses to go see the movie. Everyone thinks she may be spiritually challenged.

If you think you have it worse than Jesus did, then leave the church. You will be justified.

But if you don't ...

This is why I don't leave the church or engage in church-hopping for the highest bidder. The Holy Spirit will still be the Holy Spirit. The one running is you. You don't need to run with the Holy Spirit. And you certainly can't hide.

Much can be gained from these dark journeys. I find the lives of the monks to be worthy of example. One monk told me that the monastic life is like living on a trap door. Those who are more conscious about the injustices and sins in the world (and in the church) will be tested even greater. The challenge laid out for those who take on the race is a geometric relationship. The more you want things to work our the way they should, the more you will be scourged. You won't be understood. You will be laughed at.

This reminds me of the philosopher's dilemma. Like the person who got tired of seeing only shadows on the wall of the cave in Plato's simile (of the cave), he eventually by-passed the flames that made the shadows from behind and climbed out into the sunlight outside. Some non-Christian religions speak about a higher level of consciousness, something way beyond the religious/spiritual appreciation of those who are satisfied with placing their nametags on tables ...

One thing holding back many clerics and bishops from acting like better clerics and more worthy bishops is fear. Everyone is looking over their shoulder wondering about their job promotions or what Rome may do if they actually acted like real leaders. Who, in the end, gets screwed? The people, the sheep, the Church.

Your hatred for sin and everything that is wrong with the world - this world - is actually a good start. In fact, it is a great start. You can't begin to reject sin if you are still hanging around it or are not consciously aware of its existence. Many DO go about their lives as though sin doesn't exist anymore. Even some clerics and bishops. Sin is NOT what one gets if one gets caught!!!

I mentioned Ss. John Climacus and John Chrysostom in a previous post. None of them got sanctified without taking the bull by the horns and challenging others to take God, Jesus, Spirit seriously. Interesting enough, the Church canonized both of them, not their adversaries.

Clerics and bishops come and go prancing around in their fine liturgical jewelry, cute hats, and long-winded titles. All junk that can only be admired by a punk.

Go to the quiet. A poustinia you shall venture to. Focus inward on what the Holy Spirit may be asking of you at this time. At first, it may scare the living Hell out of you.

But that can only be good, right?

Cantor Joe Thur

I would point out the example of St. Maximus the Confessor among others. Bl. Metropolitan Sheptytsky who was ostracized by his family for some years because he became a Greek Catholic monastic instead of a Polish Roman parish priest (as his family was Roman).

Many good people have changed churches, rites, eparchies, whatever to the greater good and glory of God in their service and ministry. Some are led to change. Many even on this forum have changed from the Roman to some Eastern church. I would caution using a wide brush when using terms like "church hopper".

God often closes doors in order to open others. What shoe size fits one does not certainly fit all. Should one stay and be in a lesser or even miserable spiritual state or go to a place where you feel welcome and supported? Often with the blessing of your spiritual father, family or friends? In which place is the Holy Spirit operative?

Diak,

My reference to church-hopping was in regard to those who are opportunists (those who sit in wait looking for the highest bidder). Many DO find the truth in other churches and prefer to go there. But church-hopping (going from church to church to church to church to ...) is quite different than conversion. I think I was speaking about the dangers of the former, not the latter. Excuse me if I wasn't clear enough. It was a random brain fart that got put into words.

On another thread, Diak, I made reference to all those who were so willing to give addresses of possible church destinations for those upset with their own church (maybe the lectern got moved or a Good Friday service was moved back to ... Good Friday). Many are so willing to jump at the opportunity to make a convert; like making extra points. But my question made then is the same I make now: would you be so quick to suggest other women if a married man was currently having marital problems? I knew a fella who went through all the trouble of finding a lawyer to discuss a possible divorce he was contemplating. After it was all said and done, the lawyer finally told him that he had a wonderful marriage and that the REAL problem was his poor money/financing skills. He was spending more than both were taking in. In the meantime, family members and friends were trying to introduce him to other women. He once tried to bum money off of me and asked if he could live elsewhere. I told the fella to go back to his wife and work things out in his own home. Discuss it.

Joe