www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Loss of Faith

anamchristi,

You have received some wonderful responses here.

It seems to me that you wanted some specific answers to some specific questions, so here's how I see it:

Q:"... faith is a gift, what happens if the gift is lost or taken away?

A: 1) God does not "take away" the gift of faith. But in times of trials or difficulties, we might tend to shun the gift. 2) If shunned, you have the oppurtunity to "get it back" at any time while you are still alive (BTW, your writing here PROVES TO ME that you have not lost the faith, or else you wouldn't have even bothered to ask the question in the first place!)

Q: "I keep finding myself saying what's the use"

A: Gethsemane? (and so did He, so did He ....)

Q: "God seems to no longer care for the world or the church"

A: False. The world is literally held together by God, so if he didn't really care for us or His Church - then none of us would actually be here now to talk about it!)

Q: "I have personal experience with clerical abuse and still suffer the effects. Where is God in that?"

A: If you mean to say "where is God in evil?", well, very simply - He's not. That is a spiritual impossibility. We humans though, can be very evil. Repent, and God picks them (us) up.

"No repenty, then goey to Helley" (don't try looking that one up, it's not in there. Well, not that literally anyway!)

Q: "Where is God in .... the response of the bishops and the Church to abuse ..."

A: Not there. At least not in certain areas of our Church. Because in those certain areas, God has not been made welcome anymore. He has been rejected.

In the Petrine though office - He is always there in the promulgation of matters on Faith and Morals. You want to see Jesus' CURRENT and CONSTANT teaching for His Church and for the world, look no further than Peter.

Q: "Where is God .... with all of the pain, suffering, hunger and war, in the self righteous people who make up our parishes and goverments?"

A: He is there, directing our evil generation(s) to do something about it! That's called the actions of the Holy Spirit. But we are permitted to turn our ears away from those directions.

Even so, that will NEVER prevent God from continually trying to get our attention .. over and over again - to do the right thing. And this He will do until the very end of the world. If He did let go of us and was no longer active in our world, then we never would have even made it this far! That is PROOF of Him still being actively involved with His world !!!

Q: "I cannot for the life of me see the hand of God in any of this"

A: And for the most part, you won't (and you shouldn't). Because all of those things are OUR DOING - NOT HIS! And as I've said above, He constantly directs us - and we as a people seem to constantly reject Him. To not see how He's going to put it all back together is a fact of life you (and us) had all better get used to.

And even if Jesus DID SHOW US His plan, what makes you think we'd understand what He had shown us anyway? We are mere mortals - and He is God.

Q: "Where is God in this board?"

A: O.K., I have to own up now. This is actually God you're speaking to here. Hello, it's Me!

LESSON HERE - Try to keep a good sense of humor at all times! It's a must for our survival!
(waiting for lightning bolt to hit me ... waiting ... waiting ...)

I'm still here! And BTW, if it weren't for God - the Byzcatholic forum would not even! RIGHT?

Q: "I see the hatred expressed by some members, the fighting over pews, language, ethnicity, jurisdiction, a movie, sexuality, etc., where is God in this? "

A: These are examples of confusion that you are illustrating to us here. God is obviously not confused over anything - so what you often see here is our own feeble minds (mine included) trying to fugure all this stuff on our own. and that's when things get really confusing. There is an Easy Answer. Go to Peter....

He is the only one to whom God said He would give authority to loose and bind in matters of Faith and Morals. Not you, not me, not any individual bishops or priests (unless they are in union with the Holy Father), much less anybody else here on these boards. A lot of times, what you see here on these boards is the strutting of our own personal opinions and not that of the Church - and that is when we get really confused.

Q: " If there is a God, then He seems to have set things in motion then left us to get along the best we can "

A: NO WAY, NO HOW.

Not even close my friend. If God truly left us entirely to our own devices - then we wouldn't have even made it this far. We would have blown ourselves up a long, long time ago. Even though we humans have been created to be a phenomenally adept spiecies, you have gone too far in granting us way too much credit for our own survival where no credit is actually deserved.

Without God's helping assistance every single step of the way, well - Noah never would have even been able to make the Ark! (sheesh, imagine tracking down 2 of every creature in the whole world! "And you wanted that done by when, Lord?")

LOL LOL LOL

Slavu Isusu Khrystu!
(Glory To Jesus Christ!)
Slava na viky!
(Glory forever!)

P.S.

I love ya anamchristi, my are my true brother in Christ! I mean that! And if it's anything to you bro, I share in some of the miseries that you have mentioned ...

Personaly, I think Jesus had allowed you to ask us these questions, so that I would take notice of your thoughts and stop playing with my stupid Xbox for a second. God actually wanted me to THINK for a minute!

he, he

Now, if anyone could offer me any suggestions on how to shave another second or two off my lap times in my new "TOCA Race Driver 2" game, I would sincerely appreciate it ..........

Later friend.

With all due respect I think your marital problem analogy may not be the best one in this case. I don't think the enticement towards or the committing of marital infidelity is really analagous to spiritual well-being and feeling welcomed or belonging to a parish. One, Holy, Catholic - regardless of what eparchy or "jurisdiction" one belongs to.

But I do agree, with your clarification, that sometimes that sort of thought is endemic in some persons and habitual, with one roaming many places, disgruntled everywhere but belonging nowhere. Then it gets into all sorts of spiritual instability, etc.

Or perhaps this for another thought on a tangent -sometimes it is perhaps just better in the long run if someone goes elsewhere than continue serious pariochial confrontations and divisions which in turn create even deeper internal rifts and stress for everyone.

As someone who has suffered sexual abuse at the hands of protestant clergy as a child, I understand. It took years of healing and I am now 55. My healing came through the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life and the Sacramental graces of Confession and Eucharist. In the Holy Spirit we breath and move have our beginnig. So too it is in now that we are able to come to the full saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. What was done to you is an abomination agianst God, but God has not given up on you, that person, or the world. Man has turned from God.

Fr. Ray Ryland was on the Comeing Home Network and he made the statment that it is a homosexual act commited against the child, and it was spiritual murder. But he also continued by saying it is very important that spiritual suicide not be commited because of the act done. If I can help in any way let me know.

Pani Rose

What caring and beautiful answers! Anamchristi, please know that we here do care, or we would not spend our time praying for you and trying our meager best to help. Evil will not win out in the end! The victory has already been won in Our Lord's Resurrection! And, YES, His Resurrection was very, very real! Beg him to take you by the hand and pull you up out of the darkness of the pit. I will plead the same for you. May our Lord richly bless and touch your life, in Christ!
AMEN!

Thanks so much for your responses, but there is one comment I must make. There have been several mentions that abuse is because of homosexuals in the priesthood or a homosexual problem. This is patently false information! The problem is caused by an abuse of power and exploitation of vulnerable persons, whether man, woman or child. There are just as many women and girls who have been abused, they just don't get the press that altar boys do. Blaming this problem on homosexuals is just a smoke screen to keep from accepting the truth...that everyone from the Pope on down is at fault and must accept some share of the guilt, this is not happening. Until this is admitted and changes are made in the way the Church is governed, there will continue to be a loss of credibility in the Church and her message. If you can't trust the Church in matters like this, how can you be expected to trust her when she teaches anything else? Its an all or nothing situation. Anamchristi

Just found this article, the problem has been around for a long, long time. Anamchristi

http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,1192267,00.html

Anam,
You've brought important points to everyone's attention and you've helped people to think hard about a great evil. You have to understand that the Church's credibility hangs not only on what the hierarchy does (and I think I made it clear earlier that I carry little water for them) but also on what you do. As an institution, yes, the hierarchy is on the spot. As the Body of Christ, you brother are the Church. How credible are you? This is not an accusation but a route to healing.
To live a life of prayer and fidelity to the Crucified Jesus is spiritual power for yourself. It is a power the world does not know and cannot give and frankly does not respect. However it is a power that will heal you and will further the message of Christ. The choice then is yours, and you are not dependent on the actions of miscreant clerics. Your abusers do NOT have control. You DO. Do you fast, pray, and give alms? Do you love your God with everything you've got and then your neighbor as yourself? Are you willing to be humiliated in your quest to stay close to Jesus as He endures these modern day Judas-priests? None of this is accusation and could you hear my voice instead of merely reading lifeless type/bits I know you would understand me better. To me, the very best saints of the Church are the ones the Church could not handle or simply abandoned. Western examples are Francis, and Bernadette of Lourdes. A great Eastern example is John Chrysostom. You know as well as I that there are many, many more.

If you don't have a rule of prayer, please begin one immediately (preferably with the help of a trustworthy father if available, but even if not I advocate that you try). Reorganize your life so that your prayer throughout the day becomes the frame of your other activities. The prayer need not be lengthy but ought to be regular. You know what to do, I am sure. Without prayer, there will be no answers and without prayer you will likely not see beyond the human institutional face of the Church. Strength, brother. You are in a fight so fight as to win. In your victory I will be strengthened, but if you should fall to the enemy, part of my life is lost as well.

I find this to be a particularly interesting site concerning your questions. http://biblia.com/christianity/clergy.htm

You have been given many good answers to your questions. It would be good to check EWTN's Journey Home and listen to FR. Ryland. Although the discussion was not specifally about this subject, I feel his thoughts are very timely.

Pani Rose

I don't think so, anamchristi!

The problem with all these abuses begins at it's very core with dissent.

And as you well know, one can not be a practicing homosexual and also be in conformity with Church teachings. Much less a priest in good standing.

The two are mutually exclusive.

Also, that the Church recognizes that there are serious problems in ordaining homosexuals to the priesthood may be found in their following response:

Vatican Response on Possibility of Ordaining Homosexuals to Priesthood

Letter of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments

Pro. N. 886/02/0

Vatican City, May 16, 2002

Most Reverend Excellency:

The Congregation for Clergy has sent this Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments your Excellency's letter, asking us to clarify the possibility that men with homosexual tendencies be able to receive priestly ordination.

This Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, conscious of the experience resulting from many instructed causes for the purpose of obtaining dispensation from the obligations that derive from Holy Ordination, and after due consultation with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, expresses its judgment as follows:

Ordination to the diaconate and the priesthood of homosexual men or men with homosexual tendencies is absolutely inadvisable and imprudent and, from the pastoral point of view, very risky. A homosexual person, or one with a homosexual tendency is not, therefore, fit to receive the sacrament of Holy Orders.

I take the opportunity to send you my most cordial greetings.

Yours sincerely in Domino Your Most Reverend Excellency
Jorge A. Card. Medina Est�vez
Prefect

Also anam,

Your point that homosexuals in the priesthood has not added greatly to the cases of reported abuses holds no real substantial water.

Have you read the book "Goodbye, Good Men" by Michael S. Rose? It tells of an entire underground network of practicing homosexuals who are in the Church. No one speaks here of an underground "network of pedophiles". But instead, we have multiple accounts and testimonials of a subversive group of active homosexual priests.

And so you would then have us believe that it is by sheer mathematical coincidence (or because of the fact that there are fewer altar girls than altar boys) that a great majority of those who were abused were almost all male?(in excess of 90% by some reports)

That kind of thinking my friend, is pure nonsense!

But even so anam, we must never lose hope that the Church will not be overcome and overwhelmed by these dissident, practicing homosexual clergy.

Because losing hope would be a sin against the Holy Spirit, as Francis Cardinal George has so eloquently spelled it out:

"What, then, is the sin against the Holy Spirit? To lose hope by deliberately denying the truth, because this sin fixes one�s will in evil and makes one a servant of the Father of Lies. Not even God can forgive someone who deliberately chooses to reject him, whose hardness of heart closes the mind (Mt. 12:31; Mk. 3:29; Lk. 12;10).

For the mind, there are solid sermons and books, good catechesis and Catholic education; for the heart, there are loving parents, caring pastors and the company of saints. We live in hope because God freely sends the Holy Spirit; but we have the duty to train the young to live in spirit and in truth."

Sincerely yours in Christ,

Francis Cardinal George, OMI
Archbishop of Chicago
January 18, 2004

FrankB, what a load of male bovine feces! Sexual orientation has nothing to do with this problem! Rape is not about sex, it is about violence, power and control over the victim. Once again the Vatican and the bishops are using the issue of gay priests as a smoke screen to avoid the real issues....allowing immature, emotionally damaged men (gay and straight) into the priesthood where they RAPED vulnerable men, women and children, then when exposed, the crimes was hidden or ignored up by the bishops. And Rome lets them get by with it! You need to read some of the posts on the SNAP (Survivors Network of thos Abused by Priests) web page discussion and see what the hierarchy has put people through!

http://pub72.ezboard.com/bsnapsurvivorsnetwork

And you will also find that a large number of those abused/raped were women and female children! You will also find that approximately 60%+ have lost the faith to one extreme or another, more from the response of the bishops and Vatican to the reported abuse, than from the abuse itself. That says a lot. And you will find that your precious Cardinal George and the Chicago Archdiocese has a large section all to himself!

http://pub72.ezboard.com/fsnapsurvivorsnetworkfrm20

And especially check this thread out:
http://pub72.ezboard.com/fsnapsurvivorsnetworkfrm20

As for the book you mentioned...read it, threw it away. Nothing but DANGEROUS propaganda to cloud the issue.

Its funny, you have been trying to strengthen my faith, but in the end you have just ended up driving me farther in the other direction. If the Church can't be honest about these things, maybe she has lied about everything else? It has lost all credibility for me.

Anamchristi

So Anam,
It appears you have not come among us with this topic in order to seek answers. You are content with the answers you already posess, whether on not there are grounds to question them. Brother, take responsibility for your choices. No one here has driven you to anything. You came hoping to vent anger and to denounce the Church in toto. You have righteous grievances but you will not look or even respond to the spiritual answers. You do not appear to want to enter into Faith but rather to make war against the institutional sins of the Church. That is of course your prerogative. I suspect, though I cannot speak definitively, that it is also your loss of Christ. Best of luck to you brother. God assist you in your battle with your anger.
KH

Anamchristi

Your concerns are very real, and unfortunately to this very day, the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church has failed to deal with the problem of pedophile priests in a manner befitting the seriousness of the situation. If the Church refuses to bring men who molest children to justice, then the State should, and personally I strongly believe that former Cardinal Law and others like him, should face criminal charges.

I'am however, rather puzzled by your derogatory comments about the book "Good Bye, Good Men". To deny that their is a vast underground homosexual network operating within the Catholic Church is to deny reality, and to attack the book simply because the author did not mention females who were molested, is unfair because that was not the author's intended topic.

Christ is Risen!
Truly He is Risen!

Dear Anam!

I am curious as to why you are posting this thread. I am going to answer selectively, though.

This Forum exists because people CARE. They care about each other, and they care about Christ. What you have termed HATRED is rather passion and love for an aspect of faith. To us, a spirited discussion on music, or pews, or customs, is well and good, with the understanding that respect and love of Christ is at the back of it.

NONE of this would take place if the people on this forum got up on Sundays once or twice a month when it was too rainy to go golfing, and stood in Church daydreaming about the next social event. They CARE about worshipping the Lord. Correctly, and with all the fullness of their faith. This comes across in passionate and heightened discourse at times, but never "hatred". And one look at the prayer forum should show you how quickly people will help total strangers, many of whom become friends off-forum as well.

As to YOUR circumstances, I am puzzled by your attack on everyone else who is trying to help. I read over all your posts. Your very first post was a rude commentary when people were concerned about getting themselves and their children out of the way of an abusive priest. You advised them to "Get over it". I find your behaviour as it stands now inconsistent and offensive to those who tried to reach out to you.

People who have suffered abuse have exposed their own scars to help you heal, and you have responded in anger, and brought more pain to them.

This looks less like a genuine "loss of faith" cry for help than the words of someone who has been wounded and has turned to attacking everyone in his path. I hope and pray, brother, that such is not the case. You have in this thread rejected Scripture, rejected those who hold out their hands to help, and those in the Church who acknowledge the problem. In other words, you reject all.

Do not in so doing, reject Christ. Man sins. Christ did not. If you were sinned against to such and extent, know only that Christ promises that the punishment for those who caused your loss of faith is dire. Matthew 18:6:

"But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

DO NOT LOSE YOUR FAITH IN HIM! DO NOT LET EVIL TWIST YOU INTO SOMETHING THAT ONLY ATTACKS IN RAGE THAT WHICH TRIES TO HELP!

My advice: Spend no further time reading clergy abuse sites. You know you were the innocent victim. No more. If you cannot pray in YOUR Church, find another. PRAY! And find peace.

Gaudior, who will surely pray for you

anamchristi,

My times on various forums has taught me one very important thing.

To know that when all that should have been said, has been said.

And it has.

The rest is now up to you anam.

So then, my last remark to you on this matter shall be this:

Of the last three posts by KH, Lawrence, and Gaudiour ........

WHAT THEY SAID.

And enough of this my friend. Enough already.

Frank