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I have a question about the Divine Liturgy. In the missolet it says kneel during parts of the Divine Liturgy, but many stand. What are we suppose to do? Byzantine Newbie!

Saint Nicholas Please Pray For Us!
Ray S.

Stand.

O when, O when, are we going to get up to date Liturgy books?

Kneeling is reserved for times of contrition as in Lent and a few other times in the Eastern Church. Standing is the preferred mode of honor to God.

BTW I wish we could take the next step and eliminate pews.

Dan L

[This message has been edited by CD Lauffer (edited 05-20-2001).]

I'm glad you asked. The first time I went
to the liturgy, I started to kneel and friendly brothers gently held my arms and
shook their heads. What's funny for me is before I ever went I prayed al lot standing
and often facing East, not intentionally...
I'm still getting used to it.
Secco

We stand during the Liturgy a lot especially after Pascha.

Yes, let's get rid of pews! It's a Protestant invention. I love pewless churches.

Yes, we need to update our liturgy books...since the old ones probably were Latinized.

spdundas

Hello, At my Parish we kneel at all the proper times. The only times in which we do not kneel is from Pascha until Acsension day.
This is done to celebrate the Risen Christ.
Our parish will continue to kneel until the Bishops say we can not and even then there may be a fight over the issue. I am also fully in favor of kneelers and kneeling during the parts of the liturgy where it is required. We are after all Byzantine Catholics and not Russian Orthodox. I like being half way between east and west. A mixture of both faiths. Some say to get rid of the kneelers. Well do you want to go back to the days when women stood on the left and men on the right only ?? If we are to return to the old days there will have to be alot of changes and most of you would not like them and after a while would call for a return to the ways they are now. So I say leave them as the are . My oppinion !!

Yes, there were struggles when the kneelers were removed and new pews were purchased without them. Before that there were struggles when the statuary was removed and when English was introduced. Yet, if done slowly and with explanation things do change. I'm not opposed to women on one side and men on the other. As far as I'm concerned that is neither here nor there. In fact, my wife and I always worship separately. I'm a cantor.

But the real issue of pewless churches has to do with spirituality. If we are all one church let us all be one church. Let us avoid the separation between clergy and laity that pews force. Let us begin to move about and really get fully involved in worship and not be lulled into a spectator status.

It might be instructive to read Ezra and Nehemiah. The conservatives wanted things to remain as they were. After all, it had been three generations since there had been a kingdom in Israel. Three generations without the city of Jerusalem. Three generations without a temple. Who needed it, said the conservatives. We get along quite well without those things. We like the way things are. Who are these interlopers who are trying to force us to do things the old way? We don't like the old way.

Well, read the books. You will see what I mean.

Dan L

>>>We are after all Byzantine Catholics and not Russian Orthodox. I like being half way between east and west. A mixture of both faiths.

Response: Slava, I take it you don't ever read any Vatican Documents or read up on any liturgical matters discussed by the esteemed Fr. Taft, the expert, or perhaps you missed "the Courage to be OUrselves" by Archbishop Joseph Tawil (available online). We are NOT SUPPOSED to be a "mixture" of two "faiths"! First of all, Catholic and Orthodox are the same "faith"--Christianity--and second of all, the goal is to try and join the Catholic and Orthodox Churches back together--at which point we would be unified with all "those Orthodox" and expected to have a truly Byzantine liturgy.

That's what really gets me about people who think in the "BYzantine Catholics are a nice compromise" viewpoint--you try and remain Latinized to prove you are Catholic, but when the Pope himself tells you to delatinize, you drag your heels! Selective obedience! Please read the "Balamand Statement" signed by reps of both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Kneelers DESTORY the whole worship experience! Hey--they're not even Catholic! Protestants invented them! Do you want your faith to be a little bit of Protestant thrown in too?? I guess you don't do full body Prostrations during Lent. Have you ever prayed the Canon of St. Andrew? Kind of hard to do 285 prostrations with kneelers.

Thank God we junked the pews!

anastasios

Some say to get rid of the kneelers. Well do you want to go back to the days when women stood on the left and men on the right only ?? If we are to return to the old days there will have to be alot of changes and most of you would not like them and after a while would call for a return to the ways they are now. So I say leave them as the are . My oppinion !![/B][/QUOTE]

Christ is Risen!

If it is any consolation, even the Eastern Orthodox have the same issue. After attending services in both schools of belief, I choose to align with the "No Pews" believers. I find that when I worship without pews, I am able to experience a more spiritual and physical worship of God fully using ALL of my senses.

As for the other issue "Well do you want to go back to the days when women stood on the left and men on the right only ??" Again I have worshipped in both the old and new way---I find that the men and women standing seperately eliminates a great deal of distraction during the liturgy.

It enables the man to properly support his wife by caring for the male children and gives the male children a great example of male spirituality. There is no stronger witness to the faith than when a boy sees his father actively participating in the act of worship. There is no stronger bond than can be built as the father teaches his son teh practices of teh Eastern Church. I find that boys in this environment learn to pray more quickly, learn to cross themselves reverently, and develop a very special relationship with Dad.

My daughters, likewise, surrounded by Godly women, have not questioned: why they should wear a head scarf? or What is the role of women in the church? and How does a woman serve in the church? because they were surrounded by the Godly women, and especially their mother modeling spiritual behavior and practice before them.

To both my sons and daughters, a visit to the monastery with their mother or dad was a special opportunity. My sons would come up to me and ask if they could go and spend some prayer time, "just me and you dad". How special are those memories.

My daughters would approach their Mother to see when she could arrange to go with them for a pilgrimage to the local women's monatsery to meet with the sisters and their spiritual mothers.

I don't know, but these things seem to be missing from the "newer" style parishes who have lost these traditions.

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

Christ is Risen!


YES!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Syrian parish I attend does this (with pews unfortunately), and it's really lovely. Antiphonal singing sounds really good when the chanting is thrown back and forth between the two sides!

Just my two kopecks.

in Domino,

Edward

I believe there's something about there being neither male or female in the kingdom....

If you find that you pray better by standing separately from women, then by all means, do so. But please, don't be more Catholic than the Pope and require it. Or head coverings, etc.

Liturgy is a communal work. Community means all of us. The original separation of men and women in the synagogue was a reaction against the orgies common in pagan worship. I haven't observed any such activity in church lately...

Many newlywed couples in our parish have one "native" member, and one "newcomer." Being able to worship together builds their relationship, and means that the "newcomer" is with a loved one rather than people he or she may not know well. There's probably no theological value here, but there's a lot of comfort.

There's something very precious about worshiping together as a family. (If both of you are cradle Catholics, it may be a joy you take for granted.) For families with young, active children it's also very practical. Mom and Dad can work together to soothe, distract, calm, mediate, etc, and both (hopefully) get a chance to pray, too. We have one family at our church with six girls. They should be totally mom's responsibility in church? Thanks, but no thanks. And what about families where only one parent comes to church. Are the children of the "wrong sex" out of luck?

I'm glad that segregation by sex works for your family. It is by no means a universally shared preference.

In Christ,

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Our congregation does stand separated by sex but that isn�t rigidly enforced.

Serge

<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</A>

I think Sharon hit the nail on the head re:splitting of sexes.

It would have to be by choice in our culture, and not anyone would really choose it.

Even in the local Coptic Church, women sometimes stand next to their husbands. My girlfriend has a hard time going with me becuase she doesn't know anyone there and hey, I can't blame her for not wanting to sit alone for 2-3 hours!

anastasios

>>>I believe there's something about there being neither male or female in the kingdom....<<<

The custom of separating men and women on opposite sides of the aisle began in the 4th century, when John Chrysostom instituted the practice because of the scandalous behavior of the people during the liturgy (and remember, this was the "Golden Age" of liturgy, too!).

Stuart,

I was under the impression that it began with the Jews, and St. John C renewed the practice.


Best,

Sharon


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

I am by no means a liturgist, but I would answer the question thus:

1. It is appropriate to stand rather than kneel on all Sundays (except Pentecost when there are special "kneeling prayers" at the end of the Liturgy) and during Easter and the following days until Ascension day.

2. On weekdays it is appropriate to kneel except during the 40 day period between Easter and Ascension day.

3. If you are lucky enough to be in a chapel with out kneelers and pews, it is appropriate to do a prostration and remain prostrated during the entire time alloted for kneeling. (that is on days other than Sunday.)

In my current parish (the only Byzantine Catholic church for miles), everyone kneels all the time. I sometimes stand in the "overflow folding chair section" in the rear of the church in order to have more room to bow and do prostrations. Also I sometimes kneel on Sundays too when I regularly wouldn't prefer to as not to be a "sore thumb" or distraction for the other parishoners at the Consecration.

One question for you Ray, to think about is, which position (kneeling or standing) is the most appropriate for you at this point? If in a BC church, standing minimizes your sense of the Sacred at this point in your journey, then by all means choose the other option and kneel.

Hope this helps,
Christos Voskres!
Steve