www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology One Holy Table - One Day - One Liturgy

Dear All:

I began a new thread for fear of highjacking someone else's inquiry. In essence, the discussion turned to larger parishes who have more than one Liturgy per day at the same Holy Table. The issue of Sts. Volodymyr & Olha was brought up by way of example. DavidB suggests that V&O's should split into two smaller parishes. Here's my reply. Comments on my position are more than welcome.


Dear David:

Could we split into two parishes? Quite simply - no.

Reason 1 - money. While attendance is high, relatively few new immigrants are parishioners and those who are do not appear to have the same sense of duty as we do when it comes to giving to the Church. As for the old guard, the fire that was lit underneath us in the 60's and early 70's is no longer there. Simply stated, there is no way we could raise money to build another church building.

Reason 2 - geography. Becasue V&O's was built in the Ukie 'hood, the "suburban flight" of baby-boomer Ukrainians in Chicago was spread in every direction. (Had we built in the 'burbs, people would have gravitated there. See, e.g. Parma, Ohio or Jenkintown, PA).

The problem now is that where ever you put the "new" Julian Calendar parish in the Chicago suburbs, it would still be just as inconvenient and a majority of the suburbanites would still have to go downtown.

Anyway, most of the new immigrants now live in the Ukrainian Village area and within walking distance of V&O's. To reach the ideal, we would probably then have to build another church in the Ukrainian Village AND at least one in the 'burbs.

Bottom Line - for traditionalist Julian Calendar parishes, we have to stay as financially stable as possible, and if that means getting a dispensation from the one Holy Table - One Day - One Liturgy Rule, I think it's a small price to pay for all the other traditions that are being upheld.

Yours,

kl

Actually Krylos Leader, I did not "suggests that V&O's should split into two smaller parishes."

What I said was....

As you can see, I suggested nothing, I asked a question.

Which you have answered with your post here.

Thank you for that as it does make sense.

But in the long run, I think it would be best for our traditions if we do our utmost to return to them, and by that I mean all of them.


David

Dear David:

We certainly all strive for "the ideal."

So why don't you write to Bishop Richard an ask him to have St. Nick's Cathederal to go back to the Julian Calendar, take down their stations of the cross, cancel the communal Rosary prayers and mimic V&O's in every other way possible. :p

I'm sure that would balance out the attendance at the two parishes.

Yours,

kl

Getting nasty now are we?????

Well Krylos Leader, let me answer your points...

1) Julian Calendar

I would not do this, as I prefer the Gregorian Calendar as I like my "spiritual day" to be the same as my "secular day" so that I can make my "secular day" more spiritual. Kind of messy having to do the math, with the adding of 13 days (is that right), to figure out the correct days.

2) take down their stations of the cross

I believe that Alex has successfully showen that the stations of the cross are tradition in the UGCC.

3) cancel the communal Rosary prayers

This I would agree with.

4) mimic V&O's in every other way possible

I wouldn't do this becuase then the parishioners of the cathedral would most likely leave. No two parishes are the same and they should not be.


So in summary let me say..... :p


David

Dear David:

You don't attend St. Nick's (or any Ukie parish from what I recall from your posts on other threads), so why should you care what calendar it follows?

Pan Doktor Alex and I can agree to disagree on the Stations issue - although your quoting Alex (of all people) to make a point makes me wonder...

Yours,

kl

Dear kl,

Did you not say, "So why don't you write to Bishop Richard an ask him to have St. Nick's Cathederal to go back to the Julian Calendar?" :p

That is why I said what I said about the calendar!

Anyways, I would attend the local UGCC more, becuase it is closer than the Melkite, but I just can't stand the recited liturgy.....

There also has been a couple of times where we, the Melkite praish, visit the Ukies and where the Ukies vist us. It is nice to be on the same calendar.

Also, for Byzantine unity not to mention Cathloic unity, I think we should all be on the same calendar.

Tell me, what does it make you wonder????


David

Dear David:

I can't do antyhing about the recited liturgy.

The point is, you appear concerned, for whatever reason, that my parish is doing something wrong by having more than one Liturgy on any given Sunday.

One possible solution would be to send people two blocks north to St. Nick's which stands relatively empty nowadays.

Problem is, most people from Ukraine want the Julian Calendar they knew at home. Sorry!

As for your quoting Alex to make a point, I find it somewhat ironic having read you posts to each other.

I'm outa here!

kl

Dear kl,

I think we have a misunderstanding here.

The only time I am against multiple Liturgies is when the parish community is not large enough to require it.

When it is done only as a convience becuase some people don't want to attned the 10am Liturgy, they would rather attend the 11:30am Liturgy.

When the parish communtiy is large and all can not be accomodated within the Church building, and they can not afford to build a new building or to split into two parishes, then the multiple Liturgies are necessary for pastoral reasons even though they go against Byzantine Tradition.

As for my quoting Alex, if you have read our exchanges you will see that there are times when we do agree, sometimes we have the same misunderstandings you and I are having here, other times it is just that we have a different perspective (Him being a Ukie Canadian and me being a mixed up American).

That being said, I highly respect Alex and his opinions.


David

I think it was David who posted the observation that "for Byzantine unity not to mention Cathloic unity, I think we should all be on the same calendar." Now there's a pious thought worth discussing. CATHOLIC unity doesn't really enter into it, since most of the various Catholic liturgical traditions (Roman, Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Byzantine, Maronite, Chaldean, Coptic, et al) have each their own liturgical calendars. But if one wants Byzantine unity to be expressed by using the same calendar, there are two possible approaches: a) accept the preference of the great majority - in other words, the Julian Calendar, or b) if one wants the Gregorian Calendar for some ecclesiastical reason despite the preference of the great majority, offer those ecclesiastical reasons for everyone's consideration and comment.

I didn't see the previous thread referenced, so sorry if this doesn't make any sense, but why could you just have more than one altar rather than breaking the rule of only using an altar once per day?

One possibility for when multiple liturgies are dictated by pastoral concerns, is to follow the usage of the ROCOR cathedral in S.F. When needed, they will simply change the antimension on the altar. It's not the most satisfactory answer, but it is better than changing nothing.

This is a continual problem in the Latin Church.
Praise God for the rule one altar, one liturgy but when you grow so large and there are so few priests to serve the people it becomes almost impossible to follow.
I would long for the day that this could happen.
Who knows maybe in retirement.

But in our parish of 3800 familiies we have 10 liturgies a weekend not including weddings and furnerals and the Bishop even wants to add two more.Sometimes during the celebration of the liturgy I truly do not know wether I am coming or going.
God spare us and give us a mega church.
Stephanos I

Stephanos I:

My wife and I joined a parish a bit larger than you describe when we were first married. Liturgy was every hour on the hour, there was seating for about 1500 people in the church, and one had to leave after receiving Holy Communion because people coming for the next Liturgy took your seat as soon as you got up to approach the Our Lord.

Not the most ideal situation but where we lived in suburban Philadelphia it was the rule in almost every parish for miles around. At the time, too, there was no permission for Saturday evening Liturgy or Sunday evening either with one exception we eventually found.

The problem with splitting parishes was financial, too. I served with the parish stewardship committee then and the level of giving was terrible for a very affluent area. We had hundreds of dollars of quarters in the collection each week. Not the kind of money one uses to build new buildings.

Thank God for the smaller parish we are part of today, but I am sure that there are still people who must endure this type of crowding as they try to build their relationship with the Lord. It seems to me to make the struggle a bit more difficult.

Let's pray that people just keep coming and struggling to do build that vital relationship.

In Christ,

BOB

Theophan,
Thanks for the response but my point was not the people comming to the liturgies but the overburden it puts on the priest.
Things have got to change or the clergy will all die young of heart attacks and strokes or have nervous breakdowns.
Stephanos I
PS And yes there was liturgy every hour on the hour, I can remember that in my home parish, but then also there were 9 priest living in the rectory to the one or 2 if your lucky today.

Pray for your priests, for the most part they are very good men making many sacrifices that few ever see.