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Hello:

A question for Eastern Orthodox Christians:

Besides the byzantine rite, what other rites are used in the Eastern Orthodox communion of autocephalous Churches?

God bless,

Rony

The Antiochian Church does use Western Rites such as Sarum etc



Chaldean, do you go to St Peter's in El Cajon???


Brian Seraphim

Brian:

Do the Western Rites you are referring to include Western theology, Western spirituality, and Western discipline, or are these Western Rites merely Western liturgies?

The reason I ask is because a Rite in Catholicism is considered more than just liturgical. My copy of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches defines a rite as a "liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary heritage, differentiated by the culture and the circumstances of the history of peoples, which is expressed by each Church sui iuris in its own manner of living the faith" (Can. 28.1)

So I am wondering if these Western Rites in Eastern Orthodoxy are more than just liturgical?

Yes, I do. I see that you are from Sacramento. If you ever are in El Cajon and would like to visit our Cathedral on a Sunday, I'd be happy to show you around. Just ask for Rony, I'm pretty active there.

God bless,

Rony

Dear Chaldean Catholic,

Welcome to the Forum!

I look forward to hearing from a member of the Chaldean Church.

Best wishes for 2004.

Paul

paromer:

Thank you, I appreciate that. I likewise look forward to reading your posts wherever I find them.

God bless,

Rony

Dear Chaldean Catholic:

The Eastern Orthodox Churches are all exclusively from the Byzantine Rite. However I know of two small exceptions:

1. In France, the Romanian Patriarchate agreed to receive a group of former Catholics who rescued a version of the Galican Rite for the celebration of services. They're now independent.

http://orthodoxie.free.fr/reunion_regionale_a_bordeaux.htm

2. The Antiochian Orthodox Diocese of the USA allowed some former Episcopalians to have two western liturgies: a corrected form of the Book of Common Prayer named after St Tyckhon, and a vernacularized version of the Tridentine Mass named after St. Gregory.

http://www.antiochian.org/Western-Rite/index.html
http://www.westernorthodox.com/

Notice that in this last case, WR priests are required to Baptise by triple immersion, consecrate leavened bread, give communion to children, so the Western tradition is permited only in the liturgy.

Mexican:

Thank you for the website addresses. I visited all three of them.

These Western Rites in Eastern Orthodoxy are then unlike the Eastern Catholic Churches in their communion with the Latin Church. Do you think Eastern Orthodoxy will ever permit their Western Rites to be fully Western by incorporating everything that pertains to the Western heritage?

God bless,

Rony

Shortly before the Russian Revolution, the State Church of Russia created a diocese of Urmia in an attempt to create what one might term a "uniate" Assyrian/Chaldean Church within the Russian Orthodox Church - there was a Bishop of Urmia for this purpose, who lived to a great age and died in a Church Abroad Monastery in the USA a few decades ago. I'm not sure to what extent they actually used the Chaldean Liturgy, or what texts they may have published (it's conceivable that they may have printed the Qurbana in Syriac but in Church-Slavonic lettering, which is a philologically mind-boggling thought). Incognitus

Incognitus:

Thank you for this info. I heard of something like this before, but to be certain, I did some searching on the Internet. I came across this website:

http://www.roca.org/chicagoanddetroit/bishop.htm

Reading the website, I too am unclear about the Liturgy. It seems to be a biographical sketch of the life of Bishop John, and so therefore limited in its content.

Since the website is a ROCOR site, perhaps any ROCOR members here who know further info. on this group of Orthodox Assyrians can post it here. Thanks.

God bless,

Rony

I am just "assuming" that they must have used the Byzantine Russian rite with Assyrian prayers and hymns but I can't be sure.

Regarding the adoption of the western tradition in its fulness (first communion, unleavened bread, communion under bread only, baptism without immersion), I see it hard now cause the Canons prescribe the Eastern practices.

The most distinctive and particular aspect of Apostolic Christianity in the West is undoubtedly the Papacy, centre of union of Latin Christians since the beggining, and this cannot be offered in Eastern Orthodoxy.

In my opinion there's few pastoral reason for the creation of a Western Orthodox Church, and more if we've been long blaming the latins for encouraging uniatism, although some say that the Western orthodox rite can work as a bridge between Catholics and Orthodox.

Mexican:

Thanks for the additional info.

God bless,

Rony

Ah, my beloved Antiochian Church

Dear Mexican,

Actually, those Assyrians in communion with the Russian Church use the Assyrian liturgy (with some modifications i.e. no commemoration of Nestorius et al.).

Alex

Dear Friends,

I know some Western Rite Antiochian Orthodox priests who do use their respective Roman and Anglican Rites to the fullest possible extent (including Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament).

I also worked on an Akathist to an Anglican saint, King Charles the Martyr, that is now published with an icon of St Charles and is allowed to be used in the Western Rite for those who wish to do so.

This is a complex issue since when a Western Rite removes certain later practices, if indeed it does so at all, it is not "becoming Eastern" necessarily, but is returning to the Western Rites and spirituality prior to the schism of 1054 AD.

For example, the practice of giving all three Sacraments of Initiation to children is not an "Easternization" but a return to the earliest Western practice.

Alex

Alex,

I recently came across an article, I'll try and find it, which stated that the Assyrians that joined the Russian Church abandoned the Assyrian Rite and used the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom in Syriac, they have only one parish extent and it is in Baghdad but they are in ROCOR not the MP I believe.

Fr. Deacon Lance