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Dear Friends,

I have the privilege to know some Western Rite Orthodox priests, including one from Omaha, Nebraska of the Antiochian Church.

I know some non-canonical ones but haven't spoken with them for quite some time now.

One of the latter promotes the Benedictine tradition, including Oblates and even the Templar Order.

They have canonized Theophan Noli and another as saints - they've also canonized Jacques de Molay, Geoffroi de Chancey and all the Templars done to death by the French court - and also all those who died defending the Holy Land.

But getting back to the canonical Western Rite Orthodox, I attended one of their conferences some years back and spoke with Fr. Schneirla et al.

The conference was well-attended by Anglicans and Old Catholics - and some Roman Catholics who wanted to maintain their Western Rites, but who also wanted "out" of their Western churches and communities.

I met my priestly acquaintance for the first and only time at that conference - he had gone around the country bringing all sorts of Episcopal parishes into the Antiochian Orthodox Church.

There is definitely no force or pressure applied to get them to join Orthodoxy .

They really do want "OUT!" And, of course, no Jesuits are involved . . .

There is also the Evangelical Orthodox who have developed, with the Antiochian Hierarchy of course, a kind of "adaptation" of the Byzantine Rite to include a, shall we say, "Evangelical" flavour to the services.

I heard that the Polish National Catholic Church, the Anglican Catholic Church and also a group of Lutherans who are moving toward Orthodoxy are holding talks with the Antiochians.

One former Anglican minister I once met said he left the Anglican church after his entire parish "went over to Antioch."

Some Anglican bishops up here are deathly afraid of their people "going to Antioch" in the same way.

My priestly friend tells me there are those in the Western Rite of the Antiochians that want to return to a fuller "Sarum Use" rather than a "mended Anglican use" much like what the Synod of Milan has.

He also tells me that when one reads the history of old Catholic practice in the West prior to the schism, one gets a sense of how ascetical and traditional the West once was - outstripping, in many ways, the asceticism of the East.

For example, he said that when a bishop in old Catholic England died, the monks had to say the Psalter 600 TIMES for the repose of his soul!

The Psalter was said immediately over the body of a layperson who died, and then his friends and family took turns to say it four more times throughout the night and then again in the morning of the funeral.

Although I'm well aware that the Celtic communities here are not canonical, there is one group that calls itself a "Celi De" monastery in Akron Ohio that has done a fair job of translating the Celtic services, breviary and Liturgy.

They recite daily, without fail, the entire Psalter.

Alex

Another web site that I came across some time ago is www.romanorthodox.com, [romanorthodox.com,] a web site of Orthodox Benedictines. According to a priest I've talked to, this is another illigit group--not in communion with the Orthodox Church. I tried that url and it didn't work. Could it be org or net?
John

Deacon John,

There's a comma at the end of the URL. Delete it and it will work.

Fr. Deacon Ed

Might I ask where you heard this information?

If this info is on the internet, would you also post some links so I can read up on this?

Also, from what synod is this group of Lutherans from?

I hadn't heard anything about this until now and I am intrigued to hear that the Anglican Catholic Church is holding such talks and it makes me wonder how such proceedings would affect the Anglican Province of Christ the King [anglicanpck.org] , with whom I had thought they were trying to reconcile.

I find this very encouraging and hope that if it be God's will, that it will progress into unity.

In Christ,
Aaron

Dear Aaron,

Some information is on the site of the "Evangelical Catholic Church."

They have an Orthodox Cross on top of Luther's seal . . .

I think they style themselves an Old Catholic group, but I heard they had approached Metropolitan Philip of the Antiochian Orthodox Church.

Information about the other two I heard at the Antiochian Orthodox conference on the Western Rite that was held in Toronto some years back.

Alex

Dear Aaron,

Here is the URL:

http://members.aol.com/EvCathCh/index.HTML

Cheers,

Alex

Alex,

I looked through their "Divine Liturgy." I noticed the Creed did not include the Filioque, which I thought interesting since this is a Western Christian body.

The "Divine Liturgy" is interesting, I wonder where they got it from. Do you have any ideas or any other information on this group and how they came to be separated from the Church?

Logos Teen

Thank you for the link!

I scanned through their website, but I hadn't seen anything specific about their approaching the Antiochian Archdiocese, which is the info I was looking for.

In other words- vagante.

Where'd you hear this info?

Seeing as how this information is not current and is from some years back, where might I find some current information on this?

I thought that the information was current, so that was why I was so excited about it.

If there is no current information then perhaps over time the situation has changed and it's no longer something that will even occur, although I pray that isn't the case.

In Christ,
Aaron

Logos Teen,

I do not think that this group was ever a part of any legitimate church, I think they are just another vagante group that claims their apostolic succession from a variety of groups. This is the list of who they claim to have received their succession from:

You can read more about where they obtained this apostolic succession here - Apostolic Succession of the Evangelical Orthodox Church [members.aol.com]

That is quite a collection of groups to claim apostolic succession from!

I would be very wary of any group that has to post their apostolic succession on a website to try to prove that they even have it. Another warning sign is when they have obtained their sucession from a variety of groups.

In any matter this group is not Catholic, nor ORthodox and never truly has been. Perhaps one day they will be - when and if they would be received into the Western Rite of the Antiochian Archdiocese or if they approached Rome.

Until that time I'd steer clear of them.

In Christ,
Aaron

Alex,

I think there may be some confusion here. The Evangelical Catholic Church has had a concordat of intercommunion with the Episcopal Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of America (versus the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of America) since last year, a copy of same [members.aol.com] is on the Evangelical Catholic Church website. The Episcopal Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of America [eoc.orthodoxanglican.net] is an Anglican "Western Rite Orthodox" Church, about 40 years old, which espouses a theologically conservative bent - much akin to that of the Evangelical Catholic Church - opposing female ordination, ordination of practicing homosexuals, and other than traditional marriage.

I have had several occasions to correspond by e-mail with Bishop Karl Barwin, the presiding hierarch of the Evangelical Cathlic Church and he has never mentioned dialogue with the Antiochians. I do know that he is personally acquainted with several EC hierarchs, including Melkite Bishops John Elya and Nicholas Samra, and EO hierarchs as well.

Many years,

Neil

p.s. An interesting piece on the Episcopal Orthodox Christian Archdiocese site relates to a meeting between one if its African bishops and representatives of Rome - see Orthodox Anglicans Knock At the Vatican [orthodoxanglican.net] . In reply to a query about what the Vatican's response would be to "the desideratum of Orthodox Anglicans for eventual inter-communion with Rome", a curial official stated that, while Rome was cognizant of tensions within the Anglican Church, it was "(Rome's) practice to conduct ecumenical dialogue ... with Canterbury". Am I the only one who sees this as short-sighted on Rome's part?

Note my correction (bold caps) to the text of the post-script on my message immediately above.

Neil

Then they are using the original Orthodox Symbol of Faith used in the West before the imposition of the Filioque.

Oh, when was it "imposed"?

Me, I'm waiting to see if Pope Leo the Great will EVER be censured by Orthodoxy for including the filioque in the creed he gave the Spanish - or if this is still considered to be a later forgery, as Mark of Ephesus insisted it must have been.

Depending on the liturgical era that a Western Orthodox church selects, I can see either using the filioque or omitting it; but if Pope Leo had countenanced it in the fifth century, and it was continuously in use from that point on at least in some churches, then the standard use of this form when it was reintroduced into the Roman Mass under Charlemagne strikes me as having exactly the same legitimacy (and perhaps consequences) as Patriarch Nikon's reforms in Russia - perhaps more, if the Latin text was copied unaltered from the Gallic to the Roman liturgy.

Jeff

It appears the PNCC is dialoging with the Antiochian Archdiocese WRV as well as the Catholic Church.

The stats are a little off. According to their website they have 25,000 members and 135 parishes in 5 dioceses covering the US and Canada.

http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/write.htm

"Q. Are there any other Western Rite Christians (besides the Roman Catholic and Anglican Episcopalian) who have approached the Orthodox Church for acceptance?

A. The Polish National Catholic Church, which severed its communion with the Episcopal Church over the ordination of women, has approached the Antiochian Archdiocese. This is a group which broke away from the Roman Catholic Church in 1897. This Church has 282,000 members in 162 parishes and five bishops. The members of the Western Rite Commission are at present in dialogue with the Polish National Catholic Church."