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I viited for some times the site of St.Mark Western Orthodox Church at www.westernorthodox.com. [westernorthodox.com.] For I know they use the Ordus Missae of S. Pius V and are in communion with tha Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch.
What can you tell me about them?

Nelson,

Using a very basic analogy, the Western Orthodox are to Eastern Orthodoxy in general as Eastern Catholics are to Catholicism in general.

The overwhelming majority of Catholics are Latin; the overwhelming majority of Orthodox are Eastern.

The Western Orthodox have far less autonomy than the Eastern Catholics do within the Catholic Church, but I think that generally they don't desire as much autonomy anyway.

I'm sure someone else would like to fill you in further on this very interesting topic, but that's at least the bare skeleton of it.

Logos Teen

I've been visiting a Western Orthodox parish where the Sunday service is the Divine Liturgy of St. Tikhon. It's a beautiful Liturgy, very simular to the Tridentine Mass, except it is in English. I'm wondering about the American Orthodox Church, which seems to be a different Rite. Does anybody know whether they are legit and have true orders? They have a neat Web-Site, www.apostle1.com, [apostle1.com,] but hard to understand for an outsider like me. Thanks for any help with this.
John

Greetings Father Deacon John,

I cannot be positive about this, but I believe the American Orthodox group you cite here is vagante, and not canonically Orthodox.

Michael

Dear Fr. Deacon:

At first glance, the group is a "vagante."

It appears they do not belong to any canonical Orthodox jurisdiction in the U.S. or in North America. Western Rite Orthodox churches are normally affiliated with the Antiochan Orthodox Church.

They also trace their "succession" from the group of Greek Catholics from Eastern Europe that went Orthodox because of the "mistreatment" by the Latin hierarchy of the late Fr. Alexis Toth, an immigrant Eastern Catholic priest.

These former Eastern Catholic Carpatho-Rusyns are now with the OCA as ACROD (American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese). Their counterpart in the Catholic Communion are the Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholics, our gracious Forum hosts.

Don't you think any group claiming to be the "True" Church should be suspect?

Amado

FYI:
The Western Orthodox derive their foundational membership from two general sources:

-1- Disaffected Anglicans, with some other like-minded protestants.

-2- And also some Old Catholic congregations (especially in France).

That accounts for the two usages of the Western liturgy. The liturgy of Saint Tikhon being a modified version of the Anglican (Sarum) rite.

FYI - ACROD is not a part of the OCA, see http://www.acrod.org/about2.html for details on the history of the diocese.

The world of non-canonical "orthodox" and "catholic" "churches" is pretty wild; hopefully Neil, [Irish Melkite] will notice this thread, as he is something of an authority on these groups. A google search on "independent catholic" or "noncanonical orthodox" will turn up all sorts of wild groups, from gay "orthodox" churhes to hyper-fundamentalist Tridentines. Check it out if you dare...
As for the "Western Orthodox" in communion with the canonical Orthodox Churches, isn't it ironic, given Orthodox hostility to the idea of "uniate" churches of the eastern rite who are in union with Rome? You can't have it both ways...
Daniel, the unrepentant "uniate"

As a Westerner who came into Eastern Orthodoxy I am quite interested in the Western Orthodox rite.

Would love to attend a WR liturgy someday. The nearest parish to me is in Omaha, Neb.

Nelson,

St. Mark's is a parish in the Diocese of Wichita and the Southwest of the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America. It is, as you surmised, a canonical Orthodox parish, in communion with the Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch. The Western Rite Orthodox parishes, as someone already remarked, are a relatively recent phenomenon in mainstream Orthodoxy and are almost exclusively found among the Antiochians, although the Serbian Orthodox now have a Western Rite as well.

Those principally drawn to them have been (as someone also remarked) converts to Orthodoxy from the Anglican and Catholic Churches, as well (I suspect) some converts from other Protestant Churches who find traditional Eastern Liturgies to perhaps be a bit too esoteric for their religious sensibilities. I would doubt though that you'd find many former Old Catholics among them, as Michael suggested; what you would discover is that some of the Churches that derive from Old Catholic lines are using the same or similar liturgical forms.

There has been criticism of the Antiochians in some circles regarding this movement. Some see it as a "protestantizing" of Orthodoxy, others as a "catholicizing" of it. The critics see it as not at all necessary, saying that if these folks really want to be Orthodox, let them be it, rather than providing a non-Orthodox setting in which they can worship in a non-Orthodox manner, but yet call themselves "Orthodox". (I'm certain that another factor in the criticism is the realization that similar liturgical formats have, until the Antiochians adopted their use, been in pretty widespread use among the so-called "independent Catholic" and "independent Orthodox" Churches, a rather diverse bunch with whom canonical (and even mainstream non-canonical) Orthodox Churches don't want to be associated or confused.

The Antiochians have had their Western Rite parishes in place for a few years now though and I doubt they'll abandon them. At the same time, I don't see a rush by other jurisdictions to emulate the idea or incorporate it into their Church.

They have a few different liturgies that are being used; it isn't clear to me what the deciding factor is in choosing among them, although I suspect it may partially be decided as a function of where the majority of the parishioners originated (i.e., from what Church - Anglican, Catholic, or other). One is the Liturgy of Saint Tikhon, which relies primarily on the Book of Common Prayer, making it much like a High Church Anglican Mass (it is also, as Michael suggested, a variant on the Sarum Rite); another is the Liturgy of Saint Gregory, either in Latin or English, definitely suggestive of a pre-Vatican II Catholic Mass in either regard.

If you haven't yet read the page Introduction to the Orthodox Western Rite [westernorthodox.com] that is linked from St. Mark's homepage, I suggest you do. The collection of links and articles there offers some insights into the Rite.

Hope this information helps.

Many years,

Neil

Deacon John,

I was about to post a rather detailed response to your questions about the rather interesting (but very non-canonical, very non-mainstream, and very vagante) American Orthodox Church. However, I made the mistake of clicking in the wrong screen to get a reference and ended up losing my post. I don't have time to recreate it right now, but I will try and do so tonight. Meanwhile, the short answer is that Michael and Amado are correct in suggesting that it isn't a jurisdiction to which one wishes to hitch his wagon.

Many years,

Neil

Amado,

As byz?orth? indicated ACROD isn't affiliated with OCA. It is actually a canonical jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and was born out of frustration with latinization issues, especially with regard to the enforcement of a celibate clergy - but not those involving Father Toth. (The irony of it is that ACROD itself, other than having a married clergy, was notorious for having maintained many other latinizations for years - including such things as usage of the title "Monsignor", Latin vesture, Stations of the Cross and other Latin devotionals, etc..)

It is the OCA that is the legacy of Father Toth's mistreatment by Archbishop John Ireland and that scenario unfolded some 40 years before ACROD came into being.

Many years,

Neil

Actually Neil there is no irony there at all, IMO.
Apart from money issues - the ownership of parish assets - the problem was interference with our way from those outside of our church. Indeed, this problem is arguably connected, at least in part, to the formation of a new jurisdication, rather than joining the now OCA - particularly in the aftermath fo the Bishop Dzubay experience. Metropolititan Nicholas has stated that he regards his church as the heir to the Greek Catholic tradition of Slovakia etc. And I think that is perspective is held without apology.

Dear Daniel,
Their argument is that the situation are different. The Byzantine "Uniates" as they always pointed out to me are product of proselytism and were converted by force unlike the Western "Uniates", they were not attached to the Orthodox Church by force and proselytism. They come wholeheartedly.

ruel

Another web site that I came across some time ago is www.romanorthodox.com, [romanorthodox.com,] a web site of Orthodox Benedictines. According to a priest I've talked to, this is another illigit group--not in communion with the Orthodox Church.