www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Question for Orthodox

Do all branches of Orthodoxy accept Roman Catholic sacraments as valid ?

The official stance of the church as far as I'm aware is neither in the negative or affirmative. The church states it knows grace resides within its borders, but it can't say beyond that. Most Orthodox Christians I know have taken up a similar position. There are also some who will say they believe Catholic sacraments are valid, and some who will say they are not.

Well, does it go church by church then ? Have not they all have met and decided ?

No, they have not all met together to decide the matter. Within the Eastern Orthodox world, both theory and practice on this question differs widely. It's possible, but disedifying, to give examples.

Incognitus

An Orthodox priest that I read that posts on another forum states that Catholic sacraments are not valid at all. Very interesting. I am not looking for a fight, I would just like a definitive answer. I thought an Orthodox could recieve reconcilliation in an extreme emergency from a Catholic priest.

There is no definitive answer. Period.

We have to realize that there is no rule that states that a Church must define everything or rule on every possibility - especially regarding the activities of other Churches. The Orthodox have felt no need to rule on the validity of Catholic sacraments, and we should respect them in that decision.

Catholics recognize Orthodox sacraments as valid, so an Orthodox can go to a Catholic priest to receive sacraments. But this does not mean that an Orthodox person will desire to do so.

The original question is also posed from a decidedly RC point of view ("validity"), and indeed, there is no way for an Orthodox Christian to definitively answer this question.

What one can do is recognize that there is among most (not all) Orthodox Churches a recognition that if someone is baptized as Roman Catholic and converts, they are not baptized again, but are chrismated. However, the chrismation can also be seen, from the Orthodox POV, to complete that which is lacking in the RC baptism.

One thing is for sure, Orthodox Christians are not permitted in their disicipline to receive Catholic sacraments. There may have been certain exceptions in certain places at certain times, but not for everyone and everywhere.

So, sorry to be so vague, but the church wisely does not define things so matter-of-factly, else they find themselves backtracking or changing views from one position to another, from age to age.

Priest Thomas Soroka

Hello,

I am NOT trying to insult the Orthodox Christians at all or anything, but the fact that there's no unifying answers in Orthodoxy is one small evidence that Orthodoxy truly lacks unity among each other.

True unity is having every Church being on the same page on faith and morals.

To me, the foundation of Orthodoxy is somewhat strong but shaky. I see the foundation hold up by many large rocks, but overtime it still shifts and moves.

So, I really do applaud Ecumenical Patriach Bartholomelow for trying to solidify the foundation and trying to get the entire Orthodoxy to shift back into one same page on many things. I don't understand why so many Orthodox bishops are falsely accusing him of trying to "Papadize" (making like a "pope") his role. Do they fail to understand that his title "Ecumenical Patriarch" isn't symbolic when it SHOULD BE TRULY TRUE title. ACTIONS show the reality of the title, so I applaud him for trying to live up to his title. I think the Orthodox Church needs to be "a little" centralized (not too much like the Roman Church, which I think needs to loosen up just a little, which I think Pope Benedict XVI is trying to do now). A GOOD Balance is a recipe for healthy Church hiearchies.

I am just tired of hearing MIXED messages from Orthodoxy. Is that what they say or is it NOT? Ya know? Catholicism don't have that problem, and I know that Patriarch Bartholomelow is aware of that too.

And another thing, who is the Orthodox to judge that the Catholic don't have valid Sacraments? Isn't there any true genuine humility among the Orthodox Church??? The Catholic Church maintains that the Orthodox have true and valid Sacraments. Why can't the Orthodox do the same? Isn't the Orthodox living up to sin of PRIDE?

People forget that the Catholic and Orthodox Church BOTH came from the one and same source: Jesus Christ who founded the Church upon the ROCK which no gates of hell shall prevail against. One and same Church from the Apostles on to present day. SAME Sacraments, same faith (of course different expressions of the same faith), and same grace.

I just wish the Orthodox would snap out of and wake up from deep sleep of bitterment, hatred and resentment towards Catholicism. Do not allow yourselves to be wrapped in self righteousness and HATRED toward Catholicism, which is exactly what the devil wants.

The Pope throughout the ages have repeatedly asked for forgiveness and issued apology, most recently from the late John Paul II. SNAP OUT OF IT! Either you're Christian enough to forgive us or you're not Christian enough not to forgive us!

Let BYGONES BE BYGONES! Let the PAST GO. LET GO OF THE PAST. FORGET THE PAST. Focus on NOW, the PRESENT. Okay???

Thanks.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Thanks for all your replies, especially yours father.

It's strange how statements like this inevitably always seem to be followed by something insulting.

Well with people nowadays being "OVERLY SENSITIVE" about many words, there's no way of knowing what the person who reads my post would take it, so I always try to clarify something to express that I have no intention of insulting anyone.

The politically correct terms, sentences, etc. is getting tiresome to me. Because NOBODY WINS.

So, there's no way of knowing how people would react.

But you'd have to look at the matter of FACT that there is no strong unity among the Orthodox. How is that insulting?

Over the years, I've always asked questions to the Orthodox, I always get different answers regarding to the offical teachings of the Orthodox Church. So I came to conclusion that there is no definite common agreement as to what the Orthodox actually believe.

So, please Rilan, get the chip off your shoulder and not get sarcastic with me. You could have said, "These words hurt me, whether it's true or not" and I would have apologized or try to clarify my intentions better so we could communicate/understand each other better.

But instead, I feel some anger from you about what I said, which would be a barrier to any dialogue or communication.

The lack of communication is one of the main barriers in the Orthodox-Catholic relations. With all the techonology that we have in this day and age, there is NO excuse for any poor communication. (we've got airplanes, faxes, computers, emails, cell phones, video-phone, conference calls, etc. etc. etc.)

That is coming from a Deaf person who cannot hear everything that's being said around me.

Besides, I have more Orthodox friends than anybody would realize. So there is no way that I have no intention of insulting anybody here.

I have fought against bad comments from Protestants towards Orthodoxy in the past. But have any Orthodox fight against Protestants for bad comments about Catholicism? It's most likely the Orthodox have not and actually joined them in the fight against Catholicism.

If my observation is correct, I've noticed a lot of hatred and bad blood coming from Orthodox Converts, much more so than the Cradle Orthodox. I know that Antiochian Orthodox and ROCOR is filled with Converts and I can attest to the fact that many Converts spew hatred towards Catholicism. I've experienced hateful comments coming towards me from Converts when I am just an innocent bystander visitor to any Antiochian parish.

I can say the same thing about Catholic Converts, how they think they are more righteous than any religion including Orthodoxy. I have told them that they have no right barging in and telling what Cradle Catholics should be doing and what we should be believing in. I have battled against the so-called Catholic Apologetics (most of them are converts) for any attacks about or towards Orthodoxy. Have any Orthodox tell fellow Orthodox that it's not Christian and nice to attack the Catholics? Once again, I am afraid that it is mostly (not all) the case.

So, I rest my case.

It is a matter of fact that I would have no problem joining Orthodoxy as long as the Orthodox don't have so much anger, bitterment and resent towards Catholicism (including the Pope of Rome). But because of so many hateful attitude, I could not by conscience join a Church that display the lack of Christian Charity.

It seems that it's the Greek Orthodox have a lot more Charity than many other Orthodox communities. I've witnesses warm and wonderful charity from the Greeks and I have tremendous amount of respect for them.

Although the Churches are NOT perfect, the Catholic Church is NOT perfect at all, but the fact the Catholic Church have displayed much more Charity towards the Orthodox and Protestants which is more attractive to Christian holiness.

I TRY to be a Christian everyday in spite of many obstacles in this day and age.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Dear SPDundas,

Thank you for your charitable clarification. Your second explanation was clearer, and actually made sense. Your first one did wound very angry in tone . Few can argue with most of what you clarified.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Well, careful here. If a convert comes in, learns the Catholic faith and then notices someone who is a "cradle Catholic" who is taking on the "cafeteria" approach to the faith (not believing in this or that, preferring individual conscience to the moral teaching of the Church) then they do have a right to correct, just as much as a cradle Catholic would have a right (even duty) to correct.

I don't care whether someone was born into the Church, or whether someone came into it later. I only care whether they are adhering to the Catholic Faith to the very best of their ability and knowledge and seeking to perfect that more and more, both in terms of what they know and how they live it. To me the only distinction that matters is not whether one is "convert vs. cradle" but "faithful vs. dissenting."

But perhaps I've misunderstood you. I agree that Catholics and Orthodox must try and move beyond the past and build a future together united again. We need to do this honestly and with intregity, but also with charity.

Dear SPDundas,

When one comes to realize that the CHURCH *IS* perfect, as it is the very Body of our Christ, but that we mortal human beings are NOT perfect nor will ever be, as we are all sinners,( and that includes monastics, clergy and hierarchy, as well as laity) one comes to more peace within oneself.

It then becomes easier to digest the hatred and anger which we all inevitably meet at atleast one point in our lives in our respective Churches and, for that matter, in the world in general. Atleast that is what I have experienced.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the living God, have mercy on me a sinner!

In Christ's love,
Alice

To say that there are "no unifying answers in Orthodoxy," is of course, incorrect. It's hyperbole at best. If you have the proof, go through every dogmatic definition and tell me where there is no agreement on each and every one. But, if one objects that there is no unity of thought about whether there is one single view on the "validity" of RC sacraments or other such peripheral issues, then, it's certainly your right. Just keep in mind that this particular issue is a barometer of absolutely nothing.

Why should the Orthodox come out with some dogmatic statement about the sacraments in Catholicism? To what end? For what purpose? Does the RC church need Orthodoxy's blessing? Do they want to know "what we think" about the RC church? What purpose will that serve?

Sorry, I don't get it. I don't check with the local RC priest on Sunday morning to see if he thinks my eucharist is OK with him, and he doesn't check with me - he doesn't have to, and I don't require it of him.

The path to unity will first require that all the pretense be eliminated.

Priest Thomas