www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Question for Orthodox

spdundas, I apologize if I offended you. I probably should not have made a sarcastic remark, but I do find it troubling when people preface a statement that offense is not intended when it appears as though it is their true intent. Again, I ask your forgiveness if it is not what you meant to do. I have not been on this forum very long, and I�m not familiar with the personalities of the people who post here (aside from Irish Melkite).

It seemed to me in your post you feel a personal affront due to what you perceive as incoherence in Orthodox ecclesiology. That point could certainly be argued. I felt like Fr. Thomas actually gave a good and fairly succinct answer to the OP, so I felt like your comment that people are being vague on the subject or sending mixed messages seemed uncalled for (to me). I also felt like your accusations that Orthodoxy is guilty of judgmentalism and the sin of pride is painting a lot of people with a pretty broad brush. You also imply that Orthodoxy is guilty of doing the work that pleases Satan. Those are essentially the points where I felt there was an intention to insult.

That seems like a fairly subjective statement to me, and certainly I could say Catholicism is not without its own internal divisions. Do you have some specific examples that trouble you?

Are you asking priests, hierarchs, church officials, friends, people on the Internet? I could see you would get varied responses based on who you talked to.

Convertitis is indeed a disease, and it can strike in any confession. I am a convert btw, in an Antiochian parish. I can only say I have no personal experience that mirrors what you describe in terms of Orthodoxy. Personally, Catholicism did not work out for me, though it helped me to become Orthodox. I don't harbor a hatred of Catholicism and I have many Catholic friends (plus some nominally active family members).

I would agree in general that since Vatican II the western church has been more conciliatory and better at developing a faculty of self criticism. The relations between the churches goes beyond your experience, my experience and the last forty years or so though.

Dear SPDundas,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I have come to realize from many of your posts over the years that you are a good and kind Christian man AND that you have very good intentions towards reunion of Christ's Church.

I also realize from past and present posts that you are experiencing frustration with some negative situations that you have encountered. We all do at times. We even experience frustration driving on the highway, at work, on the phone and elsewhere...and even worse, sometimes we find that WE are the people that we often complain about! THAT is the human condition! On the other hand, that is where being a committed Christian tells us that we should give our imperfections and the frustration at the imperfections of others over to prayer and to the wisdom and will of God.

I appreciate the kind words you have always had for the Greek Orthodox, and I rejoice that those fellow Orthodox of the Greek jurisdiction which you have encountered have made such a good impression. I know that we are generally a loving bunch towards our Roman Catholic friends...hey-that is why most of our marriages are to all of you! *wink*

If I could just humbly recommend to you that you please pause a second before you post and try to refrain from venting your frustration too much-- as it sometimes comes across as anger and confrontation to some posters. Remember, you are basically preaching to the choir here!

I also think that it could seem that you were venting some frustration on Father Thomas, who so graciously answered from the point of view of a cradle Orthodox and devoted priest, the question that started this thread. We should all welcome and encourage the participation of our clergy, so that we can better understand each other.

If there is one primary commonality in our Churches that cannot be disputed, it is that we are called to respect those men that are called to the Holy Priesthood, (whether we agree with them on everything or not, and I am not saying that you do not, but am just making a general statement) for they administer the Holy Sacraments-- and in having devoted their lives to God and Church, they are called to a greater judgement by God. They need our support and our love. They don't often get that from the laity and it can become a situation of tension. Let's ALL remember how difficult it is to be a priest,(whether Orthodox or Roman Catholic)--especially in these days where authority is not respected and where secularism reigns.

As you are a most valued poster, please continue posting, and forgive me if any of my suggestions have sounded preachy or have offended you.

I really am sorry that some Orthodox have upset you so much...my advice would be to avoid them, forgive them, and forget it--we are not all like that!

In Christ,

Alice, who says that unity already exists in the hearts of those who love each other in Christ and who have overcome barriers, and that the Holy Spirit will take care of the rest... in His way and in His time.

With all deference to Alice, who is always gracious, I certainly do not want to be treated any differently than anyone else - I have quite a thick skin!

That being said, I hope it would be obvious to everyone that my original statement was not made with any malice toward the Catholic church. I was simply stating the obvious, the official position regarding RC sacraments is: There is no official position. One can only glean from how conversions are handled and priests are received into the Orthodox church to see just what the position is - and again, there are a variety of views on this. For instance, when a former Catholic priest desires to enter into Orthodoxy, some are ordained, while in some Orthodox Churches (notably, the Russian tradition) the priest is received by "vesting." And the history of the church shows that there were a variety of methods. As long as one is obedient to the bishop, and the bishop obedient to the faith, and the faith obedient to the Tradition, it all works.

While others may see this as some kind of weakness, I'm not sure why. The strength of this approach is indeed the diversity of manners in which Churches can be in communion with one another, and not be overly concerned about such matters, which are ultimately trivial in comparison to the dogmas of the faith, in which there can be no diversity of opinon.

Priest Thomas

Dear Father Thomas,

I just wanted to make sure that you and all our other priests will be treated with due respect by all (which has not always been the case).

I see too much disrespect in our society today for authority, whether it be towards parents, the elderly, teachers, policemen, priests, etc.

...and quite frankly, having seen the heck some priests in the Greek Orthodox Church go through (I am sure that you have heard of our 'reputation' :rolleyes: ) and having been friends to some of them, as well as one particular Archbishop who suffered due to the most extreme and vulgar disrespect one could ever imagine, I have become a little sensitive and overprotective in this area!

Please forgive me if I have offended in any way.

In Christ,
Alice

Alice,

Unfortunately, I know many of the stories about disrespect that people have show to priests and bishops, not only in the GOA, but the OCA, and everywhere else. To be fair, I know of many stories of priests also being disrespectful to their own people.

I will never forget the night before my ordination to the priesthood, I asked my father, also a priest, if he had any advice for me. He said, "Just one thing: Treat everyone equally."

It was good advice. I cannot say that I have always been faithful in following it, but with every passing year, I see the wisdom in it.

Priest Thomas

...that is profound wisdom indeed; profound in its simplicity; but sometimes difficult in praxis.

You are right in that some priests do not do this with the laity.

Thank you Father for your fairness.

Kissing your right hand,
Alice

Hello Alice:

You are right, I should try to pull the reins of my emotions. I tend to be very expressive and don't hold back on anything. Unfortunatly, I'm a very blunt person, that's one of the characteristics of a Deaf person. Like "wow, you've gotten fat" isn't really insulting in our point of view. That's one of the main thing that most hearing people don't realize about the Deaf culture, is the bluntness.

So I will try my best to conform to the norms of the hearing community so that no one would misread me or take me the wrong way.

I apologize to everyone here if I sounded mean or anything like that. It's not my intention.

I do have high respect for Fr. Anthony as I do notice the charitable posts he made. You just have to understand that I've only seen what I've only went through around here. Many Orthodox priests have tried to convert me (BLESS Their hearts), but I couldn't because I feel called to allow myself to continue to be a Byzantine Catholic, to be a living link between Catholic Church & Orthodox Church, a link that would pull these Churches together one day and then assimilate into the Church of Constantinople where we should belong to. That is martyrdom (sp?).

Byzantine Catholicism (holding all of Orthodox faith, customs, Liturgy, theology, etc.) is a sign to the Roman Catholics that it's okay to be Orthodox ("Here we are! We're Catholics! But we hold the entire essentials of Orthodoxy, almost very POLITELY rubbing them in their nose). We're saying that we are Catholics is telling the RC that the Pope accepts and recognizes the elements of Orthodoxy (theology, faith, etc.). That alone will break down walls and barriers on the Roman Catholic side.

Byzantine Catholicism is also a sign to the Orthodox Church that it's okay to be Catholics ("Here we are! We're Catholics. But we hold the entire eseentials of Orthodoxy, very POLITELY telling them that they shouldn't be too overly afraid of Papacy, and that the Papacy have not oppressed us (that is a whole other post!!! Don't even bother to comment on that one because I know that in the past it wasn't entirely true and/or wasn't done on evil malice) )

We all need to stop being afraid of each other. That we won't bite each other. It's okay, we're here for Christ, not to hurt each other ANYMORE. The past is the past. We have to let it go.


Fr. Anthony:

While there are many individuals in the Catholic Church that might have differing views (only because of ignorance) which may be true, but there is an official view of the Church found in the Catcheism (sp? forgive my poor spelling today) and in many Church documents. For example: The letter which Pope John Paul wrote about the Filoque in 1995 is binding, but many clergies and lay people are behind they don't know. Only if they knew! ONLY if they knew! Then more people would push for an offical overthrow of Filoque clause out of the Creed.

Church Catcheism and documents (mostly by the Pope and different Congregations) is the main key to unifying voice of the Church.

Please forgive me if you thought I was being disrespectful. You are correct that many do not respect their priests. Unfortunately more so among Roman Catholics in the light of sexual abuse. Also unfortunately, the Roman Catholic priests do NOT put them in a position where they expect respect. It's partially their fault to remind people to respect priests. But of course it's the "AMERICANISM" that erodes the values here and there. Also Because many times we forget that the priests are representatives of Christ which we must kiss our hand on in spite of the priest's human frails and sins. It's in the priest's Sacrament of Priesthood where Christ exists (not in the personhood of that priest). So hopefully someday all of that will be recognized and once again respect priests.

And you are also right that in the past many priests were mean and disrespectful towards the laity.

Yes, we do need your approval. Because then you guys affirm that Christ truly exists in our Church as He is in your Church. We cannot say that Christ only exist here but not there. We cannot. That is NOT pretenses at all. It's a true genuine Christian recognition of G-d in each other. Christ said "He who hears you, hears Me. He who sees you, sees Me." (something like that)

On our side, having the Catholic Church recognize and accept the Orthodox sacraments is high honor. It's our recognition that the Orthodox Church is also an Apostolic Church which we share. In our point of view, that is "wow" but maybe at your point of view might consider "so what?"

I wish many of us try to turn the tables or try to put ourselves in each other's shoes and walk mile in them, then we all can be empathetic towards each other. That is in no way being in pretenses.

I really don't think what the Pope currently/recently have been doing is all in pretenses as the Orthodox is thinking. We're not trying to win anybody over. But we are trying to bend down backwards and try to work towards unity just as Christ G-d HIMSELF DESIRES SO. It's not what the pope wants, but what Christ wants. So we have to obey G-d. We have to kneel together before Him. We have to answer to Him on Judgement Day if we don't even try to work towards unity.

He might say to the Catholic: "Hey, you didn't recongize Me in the Orthodox Church. WHY?" And likewise He'll say "Hey, you didn't recognize Me in the Catholic Church. WHY?" Woe to us!

Again and again as I've said many times before. WE do NOT "OWN" Christ as a piece of property. That means, we have no right to deprive each other's Holy Eucharist in only the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Isn't Eucharist Christ HIMSELF? WOW! Isn't He NOT? What a better way to work towards unity is to have HIM in both of us together, that alone is truly a beginning on a path towards healing, forgiveness, peace, unity, etc. all that is Christ's. All that is entirely Christ's. Isn't Christ a true Physician? True healer of the ENTIRE Mankind?

If G-d recognizes BOTH of our sacraments as His true sign of His grace/love, then HOW CAN WE NOT???

Rilian: My apologies. Also, I want to clarify that I do NOT think the Orthodox Church is doing devil's work by holding in grudges, hatred, etc. towards the Catholic. I may have POORLY expressed it properly. I merely said that the Orthodox Church is a VICTIM of devil's wiles and manipulations. (Same holds true with the Catholic Church on other areas or levels) I was just simply disappointed that the Orthodox Church have not fully realized that just yet. I mean, I have seen how slow the Orthodox have responded the Catholic's apologies, penances, etc.

But also from my experience with few Byz Catholic priests who were raised Orthodox and were Orthodox priests, they have said things about the Orthodox Church having so much hatred towards Catholicism. You have to understand that I've heard that over and over and over for many years to a point where it might seem to be the truth of it. I will have to leave it up to the Orthodox people to analyze that for themselves and truly be HONEST. Maybe there's one small shred of truth in that? Or maybe it's probably an over-statement?

All:

We have to TRY to pray for each other, restart Catholic-Orthodox fellowship. We NEED to be together for Christ's sake. We have an obligation to please All Holy G-d who so loved the world He sent His only Begotton Son to die for us.

Of course the Orthodox have plenty of pierogies, spanokopetas, baklavas, cabbage rolls, etc. And the Catholic Church have plenty of wine, cheese, lasagna, fish, fruit pastries. SO let's all go together in one room and devour on these great foods and share a laugh, pray together, etc. once again.

Thanks again. Once again, my apologies.

Blessings,

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Beloved in Christ, SP,

God bless you dear brother.

In my *personal* opinion, I think that you are correct in standing firm about remaining in your faith tradition.

I know what a good person you are, you could not offend me.

In Christ,
Alice

Dear SPDundas,

You must realize for a great number of clergy, on both sides of the fence, they feel that once seminary is over with, so is their continuing education. A great do not read, and hence are relying on information that may not be remembered correctly. You would be surprised how many on both sides of the fence do not realize that both churches hold the sacraments of the other as valid and grace-filled. Documents and pronouncements from both churches back this.

Yes, I have read the Cathechism of the Catholic Church, and other papal documents. Sometimes I keep them for later use, and other times they are passed on. I also try to keep abreast of the different documents in the Orthodox Church, along with some of the other books that come out.

You have to remember that in the Orthodox Church, much has been lost in the 20th century due to the many upheavels that the church faced. It is only now that a great many of them are being addressed. It will take some time before resolution is reached, but it is coming. After this, I expect that we will see more joint and clarified statements.

Certain fringe elements will have a clear choice to make pretty soon, either get on board the ship, or swim it alone. This is especially true for forgiveness. Some hold on to not forgiving because it gives them a sense of exclusivity. Yes, the church is exclusive, but it does not have to be without different expressions for the same faith in wholeness.

While it may be charateristic of being blunt, as one that works with different people with a range of abilities, diplomacy sometimes gets you further. I am personally a fan of Irish diplomacy personally, and that is having a certain way of telling someone to go to H--L, and having them look forward to the trip. Realistically, bluntness can be uncharitable at times, even tough it may be true, but it makes people very defensive and unbending. As far as you being true to your call as a Byzantine Catholic, so be it. We each must follow the call that God has given us, whether it is under Rome or one of the Orthodox Churches. This forum has all of the above, but we share for the most part a common and complete faith with a few differences. But it takes all of the above to come to that understanding.

What I seem to enjoy in this forum, and why I look to post on it is the Christian charity displayed here, and the sincerity of the posters. It does not mean we always get along, but in reality we are learning from each other. When we do that, we become closer in the faith, and ascend higher to our Lord Jesus Christ each and every time. I have not seen that to be true with many other BBS. In fact some of our most troublesome posters of late belong also to BBS and boards that are anything that reflects the gospel.

If we want to draw closer, find a common thread and build from there. If you do that, the tapestry of faith that you help weave will display the gospel and the kingdom of heaven upon it, where the churches of Rome and the Orthodox will have the blueprint to unity.

As far as walking the mile in the others shoes, as not to reveal too much of myself personally, I was baptized in the RCC, but my family became non-practicing after an unfortunate encounter with a priest. I was not raised in a church environment, and as a young adult started searching spiritually. It was then that I entered the Orthodox Church. As time past my parents and one sibling have returned to the RCC, while my other sibling remains rather hostile to the RCC and does not have any faith values. In fact my parents and my one sibling have been very understanding of my faith and supporters of my priestly and monastic vocation. They have even contributed to help build the chapel with their labors here at the skete I live in. How is that for ecumenical?

Be patient, and God will heal in His time, not ours. We have only started on the path, and many rocks will have to be cleared from the path. eventually though, it will lead us on a clear direction, and that will be towards God alone.

Forgive me for my ramblings,

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

As God forgives so do I, and please forgive me a sinner.

This is perhaps true, it is also possible God works in ways which we do not understand or which is not easily apparent to us.

Thank you also for the clarification.

You expect quick movements within Orthodoxy... I fear you may be destinted to be disappointed on this account.

Certainly it exists, particularly on the Internet. How broadly, I can only quantify in my own experience. I have heard for instance complaints that American Orthodoxy is being flooded by rabid anti-Catholic Protestants. I can only say in my own non-Internet experience I have never run in to this, and I know many former evangelical Protestants including my own priest (who I know recently read the autobiography of Saint Therese of Lisieux).

In addition I also know many cradle Orthodox people and have spent time in one predominantly Orthodox nation. I have never run across people who hate the Catholic church just for what it is. They certainly disagree with it on points and are cognizent of why they're not Catholic, but that's a different story. Within my own parish as well are several intermarried couples where the Catholic spouses are an accepted part of the church. They've been going for years, and the only way you would know they are not Orthodox is that they don't commune.

So , getting back to my original question. The EO Church DOES recognise our sacraments as valid. Is this right Fr. Anthony ? So I would assume the Pat. of Const. if asked by an interviewer a question would say yes. Is this correct ?

Your eloquence in your last thread was very touching and you seem very knowledgeable.

Maybe being a latin, I have a tendency to want to look at things very black and white. I am learning that EO and EC are more mystical than the west. I think this is on the right track. Thanks.

To answer your question in brief, yes. The Patriarchate of Constantinople does recognize the sacraments as valid.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

I did not by ANY means to put the question "if the Pat. of Const. was asked in an interview" .. First I do not know if His Holiness grants interviews per se. I hope not to offend by putting the question this way.

I see the sacraments of the Catholics and the Orthodox as the key to possible reunion. Especially, Communion and Confession. I respect the Orthodox request not to recieve Communion in their churches. I ask that Christians outside our faiths not recieve.

Fr. Anthony,

Christ is in our midst!

In light of your definitive answer, can you please explain why the Greek Orthodox Church chrismates converts from the Roman Catholic church and reordains former Roman Catholic clergy? Also, can you please cite a writing where any patriarch has made the statement that Roman Catholic sacraments are "valid"?

Thanks so much for your help with this.

In Christ,

Priest Thomas

Priest Thomas asks the question many of us ask, as to why the reChrismation and reordination. I think it sad when Rome accepts Chrismation from the East (I know nothing about the ordination issue, so I will not presume to comment), but the courtesy is not returned. it does nothing to help reconciliation with that attitude, and yes, it's not the bad old Latins who are solely at fault. I note that when a Catholic or Orthodox joins the Episcopal communion, at least here in my country, no reConfirmation is needed, what happens is that the Episcopal Bishop extends a hand in greeting and fellowship, and that's it. however, if an Episcopal joins Rome, he/she will need to be Confirmed by a Roman Bishop, despite the fact that the convert's Episcopal Baptism is valid (as is the Baptism from the various Protestant denominations, as long as the Sacrament was done in the Trinitarian formula, and the denomination has its Trinitarian Theology straight. recently, Rome has required reBaptism of converts from Mormonism because of this issue). Constantinople needs to get its act together, and make some advances on this issue.
Much Love,
Jonn