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I was expecting that response from you Randy.
Of course the above was not directed to the enlightened folks like yourself.
It is good to know that there are others working at the same things.


the reader should always chant the
"and with your spirit"
and then after the deacon says
"Wisdome let us attent"
the reader intones
"in the _ tone, alleluia, alleluia, alleluia!"

ilya

Dear Mother Sharon,

B'shem haAv, v'haBen, v'Ruach haKodesh, Elohim Echod, Amen!

I think women should be given greater liturgical roles and we men should just get used to it.

Let's remember that the underground Church in Eastern Europe was carried all those years by women who not only raised their families in the faith and its observance, but also defended the Church when the men, including, I would add, the high and mighty, censor-swinging, tone-singing clergy and hierarchs, gave in to the atheistic government etc.

One ROCOR publication noted the episode of women going up to their hierarch after he signed the Sergianist agreement with the Soviets and, one by one, spit on his shoes . . .

When an underground Orthodox bishop heard that, he exclaimed, "Women did that? God bless them! If it were not for women, who would defend our Church?"

Shalom Aleichem!

Alex

Dear Ilya,

". . .enlightened folks . . ."

You can take that elitist attitude and I don't have to tell you where to put it.

Alex

Dear Diak:

I'm glad I'm not the only one who answers the priest after reading.

I too have "messed up" other conductors by doing so.

Yours,

kl

Dear Alex:

Now, now. Yes, junior's superior attitude is annoying - but he will learn.

Yours,

kl

Dear KL,

I am distantly related to junior, and I really do want him to grow up to be a great Ukrainian Catholic Priest and leader in our community.

And I was very much like him when I was his age.

I would love saying things that got others' noses out of joint.

Wait a minute, don't I still do that . . .?

Alex

You have no idea who I have grown up around and what I have been exposed to. From the time I was an infant I was surrounded by these insane/wonderful liturgical enthusiasts. When I speak here, it is with their voice that I write. I used to think I had an equal opinion here, I see now that this is not so.

Dear Ilya,

No one is questioning that, and you have an equal opinion here and everywhere else.

If I'm wrong, and many a time I don't see that I am, but when I am, I look on it as an opportunity to grow and learn. And I'm still doing that, Ph.D., 20 years of work with political high and mighties, notwithstanding.

If you want to define religious life solely in terms of liturgizing, then which Father ever said that?

Even the Monks of the Thebaid got together for festivals.

The Monks of Ethiopia get together for feasts and they are known for their deep, hearty laughs as they enjoy one another's company in society.

I'm assuming your post is addressed to me - but you didn't say at the outset.

You should develop your social skills and going to more banquets is one way of doing that. . .

Alex

Dear Ilya,

I apologise to you for my tone and words above.

I was wrong and I ask your forgiveness.

Alex

Alex wrote

"Let's remember that the underground Church in Eastern Europe was carried all those years by women who not only raised their families in the faith and its observance, but also defended the Church when the men, including, I would add, the high and mighty, censor-swinging, tone-singing clergy and hierarchs, gave in to the atheistic government etc."

This is very true Alex. In 'alternative Orthodoxy', be it the True Orthodox Church, True Orthodox Christians or Old Rite Orthodoxy, women have often had a far greater profile and role within the faith community.

In the True Orthodox Church, nuns were very often at the centre of a local community, as were the literate and educated daughters and wives of clergy. Within Old Rite Orthodoxy women are often at the forefront. The knizhnitsy are the repositories of learning and traditions, often occupying a position akin to the ustavchiky, though not leading worship.

In some priestless communities old women who have performed the tisichny pravila (poklony) have a place of honour and stand at the front in worship, whilst some radical Old Believers have women leading the worship.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

How right you are, Alex. At many Ukie parishes it is the women who know the music and services far better than any of the men save but a few of the clergy.

Hmmmm - I've got to admit that I have no idea and never thought about it - but I do know that I have seen women epistle readers from time to time. In my own parish, most of the readers are older folks and 95% of the time they are male. I've never seen a teenager or college age person. In fact, I've never seen anyone in my own 30-somethin' age group. There are a lot of young people in the parish, but I guess the older folks are still the glue that holds it together.

i cant remember the last time someone over 30 read the episte in my church.

it's like bizzaro church.

ilya

Wow! Most of the people who read in my parish are about retirement age!

As you say, bizarroworld!

Originally posted by Ilya:

How come nobody announces the prokimen anymore?

Deacon: Wisdom, let us attend!

Reader: The Prokimen in the 4th tone,
Arise O Lord, help us, and redeem us for thy name's sake.

People: (sing) Arise O Lord, help us, and redeem us for thy name's sake.

Reader: (chants the verse on one note)

People: (sing) Arise O Lord, help us, and redeem us for thy name's sake.

Reader: (Chant on one note) Arise O lord, help us,

People: (sing) And redeem us for thy name's sake.
__________________________

The "dialogue" form used for the prokiemenon and the alleluia also are part of the particular form from the Russian recension. While it is a beautiful tradition which I like and sounds very good with a trained reader and choir, I have not seen this form in churches of the Greek usage, nor in most Ukrainian and Ruthenian parishes.

Originally, this format was helpful when there was not an abundance of liturgical books and printed texts for both choir and people to follow and the announcement by the reader, of the scriptural and liturgical texts facilitated the easy response of the congregation with the appropriate verses. As I mentioned, today, with a good voiced reader and choir, it still sounds very good, but should not be considered "normative" in all churches.

Since the Russian usage has been widely available in printed choral interpretations, whether chant or classically based, this "dialogue" format is seen as the common way to sing the prokiemenon and alleluia. However, it is important to remember that the "Peace be with all" that "precedes" the prokiemenon is the original blessing of greeting given by the bishop when he first entered the church and sat at the "high place." While it is fine for a reader to respond to this, it is intended for the entire congregation. The "Peace be with 'you'" following the epistle is intended for the reader and probably should have a response from him or her, but again, in many recensions, this is not said aloud with the introduction to the alleluia, as in the Russian usage. As for the "verses" between prokiemenon and alleluias, this can be done either by the reader (as in the Russian custom) or by the chanter or cantor, (as in other usages). It is important again, not to confuse one style of liturgical order with those of other churches, which can sometimes differ. Above all, it is not necessarily an Eastern vs. Latinized matter.

God bless you all,

Fr. Joe