www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Restoring Prosphora Traditions

djs - both the Ruthenian and Ukrainian hierarchies in the United States were originally united under Ukrainian Catholic Bishop Soter Ortynsky. I have spoken with some of the older people in my own parish which goes back to 1917 (well prior to the separation of jurisdictions between Ruthenian under Tkach and Ukrainian under Bohachevsky) about this issue and all of them remember antidoron as far back as they can remember. They also can never remember when the faithful did not bake the prosphora. I disagree with stating that it is not of the tradition. Some parishes of the Ruthenian/Ukrainian usage clearly had the practice and continued the practice.

[ 07-19-2002: Message edited by: Diak ]

Diak:

Thanks for this info. Here's some of what I had found.

The Catholic encyclopedia (ca. 1910), on the subject of antidoron says:
"... The giving of the antidoron is regularly followed in the Russian Orthodox and the Greek (Hellenic) Orthodox churches at every Mass, and it is an interesting sight to watch the worshippers crowding up in lines to obtain the blessed bread. In the Greek Catholic churches of Austria and Hungary the antidoron is given only on rare occasions during the year, chiefly on the Saturday in Easter week; while among the Greek Catholics of Italy and Sicily it is usually given only on Holy Thursday, the Feast of the Assumption, that of St. Nicolas of Myra, and at certain week-day masses in Lent;..."

Under "Ruthenian Rite" it notes:
"There is no distribution of the antidoron or blessed bread at the end of Mass in the Ruthenian Rite". This article notes distinctions between particular Ruthenian and other Byzantine practices, and in some cases traces them specifically to either latinization and Zamosc, or to pre-Nikonian vestiges. Unfortunately it gives no indication of how/when the antidoron practice developed.

Likewise on the matter of our prophora "minimalism"; it notes:
"In the Proskomide of the Divine Liturgy the Ruthenians are allowed to prepare for Mass with one altar-bread (prosphora) or with three, or even with the dry Agnetz (the square Greek host) if no prosphorae can be had, instead of requiring five prosphorae" I can't get on Cineast, where there is a relevant series of posts, but I think that this approach may be retain in the 1944 Ordo (maybe at the request of Bishop Ivancho). I have no idea when/where/why this practice developed. This practice is apparently related to the whole antidoron issue (no unconsecrated bread): but which development came first?

I find it very interesting that there are UC (or was it BC?) parishes in the US that have, if I understand you correctly, a continuous tradition of antidoron (rather than mirovanije). This may be related to the ethnic mix (including Serbs, for example) or the regional mix (Ukrainians from then Russian Lands). Or it may be that this was indeed traditional practice and was preserved in some parts.

djs

Bob King wrote:


My first reaction is to question why having the priest freeze pre-cut prosphora cubes to be used as needed for Liturgy is an "organic development"? Not all priests do this, of course, but it happens more than we'd want to admit.

There are two problems I see here:

1) The tendency towards abbreviation or "efficiency." The Ruthenian Church has the reputation of abbreviating things...just consider the recent discussion about abbreviating litanies from the Liturgy. Dispensing with prosphora loaves from the laity can be seen as more "efficient." The preparation prayers before Liturgy can go a lot quicker. And true, that allows more time for Confessions...we wouldn't want Liturgy to start late, would we?

2) The rejection of our own patrimony and the substitution of another patrimony in its place. There was nothing wrong with having the laity prepare prosphora loaves. Just as the laity have no role in preparing the gifts in the Roman Rite (except for presenting it at Mass) so we usually no longer have a part in preparing the gifts in our Church. If we were to restore lay preparation of prosphora we'd have to have antidoron at every Liturgy just to use it all.

Should we restore such traditions? Yes. Our patrimony is our special inheritance. Our traditions are not inferior because they're different. What is needed (and has been needed for awhile) is the courage to begin the catechesis necessary to restore such traditions (prosphora traditions, use of the word "orthodox," Sunday of St Gregory Palamas, etc.) The Melkites are way ahead of us on most of these issues. It's time we caught up.

Thanks to Diak for pointing out the more recent history of the use of antidoron in our Churches. I was guessing it was something that disappeared earlier. Perhaps the disappearance was a 20th century phenomenon?

Just a clarification: Mirovanije is not the Ruthenian equivalent of antidoron. Mirovanije has been transferred from Vespers of special feast days.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

[ 07-19-2002: Message edited by: DTBrown ]

djs - We have Mirovanije on feast days, as is the usual Ukrainian/Ruthenian practice. We have Antidoron at every liturgy, regardless of feast day or not.

These are distinct practices, the Mirovanija being a translation to the Divine Liturgy of applying the oil blessed during the blessing of wheat, wine and oil from Litya at Vespers. The Antidoron is of course those particles cut from the prosphora at the Proskomidia but not consecrated and added to the chalice but rather blessed and distributed separately.

Mirovanija is actually given at Matins when the faithful come up to venerate the festal icon and Gospel book after the Velichannya and proper Gospel reading, but Matins is a rarity at best in most Greek Catholic parishes except for Pascha which follows a somewhat different order than typical Sunday or festal Matins. If you have a parish that distributes Antidoron, and also has Mirovanije on feast days, both are administered at the conclusion of the Divine Liturgy.

I respect the Catholic Encyclopedia but would not consider that in any way definitive on any point of Eastern liturgy or spirituality. If the pre-Nikonian service books are any indication of general practice before the 17th century, then the practice of antidoron at the conclusion of the Liturgy was common as was the baking of prosphora by the faithful. It seems to me the omission of the antidoron is another later latinization/abbreviation.

[ 07-19-2002: Message edited by: Diak ]

[ 07-19-2002: Message edited by: Diak ]

Although the old Cath. Encyc. has a tone that often grates, it has a wealth of good information, and you may find the referenced articles interesting, but as I pointed out already, not definitive to the issue at hand. (You may also like to read the article on Greek Catholics in America, which anticipates the dividing of Ruthenians in to Russian, Ukrainian, and Rusyn jurisdictions.) I do not think that the pre-cut prosphora issue was addressed there, and I don't think that this practice is recognized in the Ordo.

I try to clarify:
I am not arguing for or against. I have no problem with Zapivka or antidoron. I am critical, however, about the idea of proposing and advocating changes to our practice without also undertaking prior work regarding authenticity, organic development, and pastoral sensitivity. (This principle would also apply against taking the practice out of Diak's parish.) I am very conservative on this point. I don't think it especially prudent to make people who have spent a lifetime in a church feel unfamiliar there, absent a strong case for the change.

djs

djs wrote:


I think there's enough evidence for authenticity. I'd be willing to listen to any evidence that someone may have that somehow we Ruthenians never had the prosphora/antidoron tradition.

I'd be interested in hearing an explanation of how eliminating lay involvement in making the prosphora was a legitimate organic development. (My experience is that people enjoy having the priviledge of making prosphora.)

As to pastoral sensitivity. I'm not sure why restoring the prosphora/antidoron tradition would be something hard for our people to accept. Certainly, restoring infant Communion was a much bigger step. I've seen the antidoron tradition restored in a Ruthenian parish in Arizona and it went over quite well.

Catechesis is the key.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

It may be interesting to point out that Mirovanije is correctly only an anointing. Often in BC parishes people use this word to refer to distribution of blessed bread as well but it is not the same thing. Miro(n) = oil, mirovati = to 'oil', the gerund (oiling/anointing) is mirovanie.

I have seen the practice of distributing blessed bread in a BC Matins service at the time of the veneration of the Gospel and Icon - which if I recall at this location was during the singing of the canon. This service was being celebrated in the morning before Divine Liturgy. It seems that this practice is potentially incorrect. The people were eating the blessed bread immediatley. By doing that the were breaking the eucharistic fast. It seems that at a vigil service when Vespers and Matins are joined this would be reasonable. We have to remember that the relaxation of the eucharistic fast has only come about since Vatican II in the BC churches. Prior to then all Catholics fasted from Midnight before receiving communion.

Also what is usually called Zapivka is only a 'washing down' a drink. Usually accompanied by bread no doubt. How much of this exists in BC parishes in the USA?

I am not advocating any position other than an informed one.

Bob

I just received a mailing from my old parish in Arizona. Included in it is a 8 1/2 x 11 sheet entitled "We Worship God." It appears to be answers to many questions on the Byzantine Liturgy and worship. It seems quite well done. I don't know what jurisdiction put it out. One of the questions asks:


My guess is this is a Melkite resource. Anyone else seen it before?

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Friends

If you will excuse the intrusion, permit me to throw in my 2 bits into the discussion.

As I understand, re the Antidoron tradition, there are 2 rather different things going on.

1. Getting PROSPHORA (plus a bit of wine) after Holy Communion is actually an Ablution. That is it cleans one's mouth to make sure that all of the Holy Mysteries are consumed and no particles inadvertently are coughed out etc. So one takes some antidoron to soak up the Holy Gifts and having consumed that, one rinses one's mouth with a sip of wine.

2. Getting Antidoron at the end of Divine Liturgy is not an Ablution, but [and here I am on less solid ground] comes from either the Agape meal, and/or is a remnant of the distribution of bread to the poor after Liturgy [and has since the advent of spiritualities wherein people refrain from regularly partaking of Holy Communion] a replacement for Holy Communion.

3. In Ukrainian Churches, as far as I have seen, "Antidoron at the end of Liturgy" still exists generally and commonly, but is usually only done on festive occasions, probably because it is a bother, [and, as has been noted previously, it is connected with precut frozen mini-crouton-esque Altar-bread-host-things which alas are all too common in many Greco-Catholic parishes]. Thus if one does not bake prosphora but buy it or get it all cut up in mini-cubes in a bag, then one's is not going to have extra or make extra for Antidoron. And the distribution of same adds minutes on to the length of the Service.

4. Re the "Prosphora after Holy Communion thing", I believe it is making a small but very significant revival in one of the Ukrainian parishes in the Toronto Eparchy. Apparently no one's complained!

Hope this helps. Thanks.

[ 07-20-2002: Message edited by: Herbigny ]

[ 08-06-2002: Message edited by: Herbigny ]

Some further on the blessed bread from The Byzantine-Slav Liturgy of St John Chrysostom by Ukrainian Catholic Fr Casimir Kucharek:


Fr Kucharek also explains:


Can we not restore this beautiful tradition to our Church?

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

[ 07-24-2002: Message edited by: DTBrown ]

At least in my own Ukrainian Catholic parish, we have never lost it. If you have lost it, in charity and patience work with your pastor to restore it. Some good reasons and resources have been laid out on this thread to help in your discussions. It's already in the Ordo Celebrationis, so any change will need to come from the grassroots.

I know ours is a parish where the laity bakes the prosphora, but the priest does pre-cut the loaf. He understands the symbol of unity (the one loaf) is lost. I guess the question I have is how and when does the priest (or deacon?) cut the Lamb during Divine Liturgy for 175-200 communicants? I don't see anytime in the Liturgy to do this properly, since according to the liturgicon this is to be done after the fraction rite, which seems to assume a small number of communicants. What am I missing?

It is only in the last 50-60 years, and pretty much in the West, where you will see "Orthodox" Churches with large congregations. Still more rare are the large congregations who all go for communion every week.

The problem is'nt "how do you prepare for so many during the liturgy", the problem is, if there are many to cause such a problem, then there would first be the problem, "how do you confess so many people often enough to be prepared?".

Dear bisantino,

It does take a couple of minutes. We should remember that the Lamb will be in blocks if you will so the first cut will make two pieces the second four and so one...I have been at BC liturgies when this was done. It did not seem rushed and did not seem to unduly delay the communion of the faithful.

I sense that there is more to this issue than just the time it takes to cut the Lamb. It is like the use or lack thereof of a lention at communion and its color. It is a distinguishing mark. Today in the Orthodox geographic East there are liturgies with large numbers of communicants. What happens there?

Bob

OOD has a good point, time to think about starting a new parish when it gets too big...