www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Restoring Prosphora Traditions

John Montalvo wrote:


What is done with the bread that is not used for the Lamb? Is it given out as blessed bread or antidoron? What is the custom at St Stephen these days?

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

It is distributed as blessed bread on the Sunday after a major feast with mirovanje.

Dear Friends,

I've also read about the tradition of touching the Chalice to the heads of communicants.

Is that something that Eastern Catholic parishes do as well these days?

Alex

In my experience it was common practice among BCs that the priest would place the chalice on/over the head of a non-communicating child when he/she was brought up with an adult.

John Montalvo wrote:


I'm not sure if I'd agree that the traditional rubics assume a small number of communicants (frequent Communion is a restoration--not an innovation). Is there any evidence in the early Church for the use of pre-cut prosphora?

It's been my experience in visiting various Orthodox parishes which have restored frequent Communion that it takes a bit more time at this point of the Liturgy. Does anyone here know of any Orthodox parishes which use pre-cut prosphora to save time? It's not something I've seen.

The local OCA parish uses this time to have a cantor chant pre-communion prayers (and what beautiful prayers they are!)

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

[ 07-25-2002: Message edited by: DTBrown ]

Dear Bob,

Really? Communion would not be given to a child (before the 'age of seven') in BC Churches?

That would be a "Byzantinization of a Latinization" then?

Also, since we're on the subject of "exact precise definitions and terms" , what do you mean by "Byzantine Catholic?"

I understand that to be a rather generic term.

I sometimes get the impression that others MIGHT understand it to mean "de-ethnicized" Ruthenians etc.

Could you shed any light on this for me?

Alex

Alex,

I think it is evident from other posts that in the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church in America communion was not generally given to infants/young children. There were variations on this theme in different places. In a parish I was familiar with the priest would give the baby the Eucharist at baptism then not again until "First Holy (sometimes called Solemn!) Communion. Other priests simply did not give the child the Eucharist at all until 1st communion. There are still hold-outs on this issue. FYI, in the GC Diocese of Preshov children are not communicated until 1st communion.

Byzantine Catholic is used conventionally in the United States (and I would venture to say on this board) to refer to Ruthenian Greek Catholics. For instance, most Ruthenian Catholic Church buildings such as the seminary and most of the parishes simply have "Byzantine Catholic" as the denominator not Ruthenian. The other Greek Catholics such as Ukrainians, Melkites and Romanians all use those names...not just Greek Catholic or Byzantine.

The Ruthenians have approprated this for themselves. It appears that Elko did this to make the Church less ethnic and avoid the confusing usage of Greek Catholic. Since on most maps there is no Ruthenia and that name is not even agreed upon it seems that Ruthenian is becoming more and more relegated to the realm of church-chat, etc.

Any others?

Bob

Dear Bob,

You mean questions?

No.

I'm currently surrounded by World Youths and they insist on dragging me outside to get some fresh air and otherwise loosen me up.

Perhaps it was that "chill out" comment they read in your other post to me . . .

Associating with these young people has made me feel young as well.

God bless them all - and you too!

Alex

No I mean, any others want to weigh-in on this one?

[ 07-25-2002: Message edited by: Bob King ]

The old sign in front of our parish reads: St. Joseph Ukrainian (Byzantine Rite) Greek Catholic Church. How's that for a mouthful?

In our parish the priest holds the chalice up a little so people can either kiss and/or put their heads to the base.

We have "Solemn Communion" at the first Confession at many of the Ukrainian Catholic parishes. During the catechesis for confession the kids do not receive for a while so they understand the gravity of eucharistic preparation and the need for a good confession, etc.

My oldest son is 12 and he received as an infant and ever since in our Ukrainian parish. Reception of communion for infants is in our pew books for the initiation service which we have had since at least the Millenium (1988).

[ 07-26-2002: Message edited by: Diak ]

Since comments were solicited...

I am a bit surprised that in the "Rusyn Byzantine Catholic Church" (if you will excuse this non-legal, but somewhat clear way of refering to the Byz. Cath.) that infants etc. are not Communicated. I just presumed they (the Rusyn Byz Cath) were way "ahead" of the Ukrainians on this score.

I am sure people know that the most authentic tradition is to Communicate Anyone who is validly baptised and not in grave sin - including & especially infants. This is not only the Orthodox practice, but one of the major points in the Eastern Congregation's Instructions on Applying the Liturgical Prescriptions of the CCEC, no?

Of course it is "observed more in the breach", alas, though it is definitely making a comeback amongst the younger educated set.

At one parish, the Priest preached a "fervourino" about "letting the Children come unto" the Holy Mysteries, and the people paid no attention and in that very Liturgy barred (literally with their hands) the Priest from Communicating the infants, asking for a blessing instead.

So we've got a ways to go, but we're quite definitely "on the way".

H.

ps: The Pope, in his sermon to the youth at WYD, quoted St. Athansius: God became human, so that the human could become divine. (though he did not reference St. A. - I don't think).

I emailed an OCA priest re: whether it is an acceptable practice in Orthodox parishes to use pre-cut prosphora bread when one has a large number of communicants or whether that would be considered an abuse. Admittedly, my experience is limited and in most parishes that one might visit one cannot see behind the iconostas to see what actually goes on so I wasn't sure what is acceptable Orthodox practice. This priest pastors a very large parish in the Mid-West. I just got this reply:

Dave:
I agree that frequent communion is a restoration. I would say infrequent communion in the Orthodox Church is a "Jansenist latinization".

However, the rubric, which is found after the deacon partakes of the Chalice, in the 1964 Liturgicon states:

"It is to be noted that if there are any who wish to partake of the holy mysteries, the priest breaks the two particles, NI and KA, into smaller particles..." (my emphasis). This seems to infer not a large number of communicants.

So particles for communion come from the NI and KA particles after the fraction rite and the priest communion. Yet in your latter post re the reply from the OCA priest, I read that communion particles are cut during proskemedia and not after the priest's communion. So when are the particles supposed to be cut?

I, for one, did not say that BCs do not (currently as a rule) communicate infants and children. All of my references are in the past tense above. Except where I not that there are a few hold-outs. I understand that it is not the wish of this list to name names but there are parish priests in the Pittsburgh Archeparchy that I understand do not communicate infants and children.

I trust that you will find most of the BC parishes in the country do that now.

I am not sure that this is clear. 1) The 'particles that are cut at the Proskimedia are the commemorative particles ONLY and in standard Russian practice these are not used for the communion of either the faithful or the clergy. These are the particles 'representing' the commemorations and the 'intentions' to borrow a word that will sound more familiar to some. So if I want my deceased grandmother to be remembered on her anniversary of passing a particle is place on the diskos at the appropriate time. These particles are placed in the chalice after communion and are 'abluted' at the appropriate time. 2) The communion of the clergy and the faithful is from the Lamb. The Lamb is divided at the "Svjataja svjatym" and the remaining 'pieces' (meaning not the one placed in the chalice) are divided/cut into particle for the communion of the faithful and clergy.

So, the issue at proskomedia is not how many will receive but how many will be commemorated. If there will be a huge number of communicants the Lamb must be sufficienly large and/or the pieces sufficiently small to accomodate.

Having said all of the above. I belong to the OCA, and I routinly serve. Some priests, apparently following the Greek practice, place the commemorative particles in the chalice and distribute them for communion as well.

Again, the time issue is at the 'fraction' and not before.

Bob