www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Restoring Prosphora Traditions

You are supposing that the Lamb is small and the 'particles' at communion to be large. The communion of the faithful is simply not from the commemorative particles except in, apparently, the common BC practice.

I believe that the question to the OCA priest was not adquately stated. Perhaps he can be contacted again or another can provide another reply. I personally think that pre-cutting commemorative particles while leaving the Lamb whole would be less destructive (although I have never heard of this). When using all pre-cut particles what happens at "Svjataja svjatym"? Isn't a part of the liturgy, Eastern and Western, chucked?

Bob

The reply from the OCA priest in question seems to have confused things a bit, so permit me to clear things up (from my experience in the OCA):

The Lamb is removed from a prosphora during proskomedia. The size of the Lamb depends on the amount of communicants. For example, if you look at pictures from the ongoing OCA All-American Council, you can see a Lamb maybe 7x7x6" or so. You can also see Lambs this size and larger in pictures from large cathedrals in Russia. Someone once remarked that these are more like sheep than lambs.

After the fraction rite, the Lamb is cut up. When you're dealing with a Lamb this size, it is generally sub-divided first, then several priests cut it up. Whether you have 20 or 2000 communicants, the Lamb is left intact.

In my (OCA) parish, we have 60-75 communicants on a given Sunday. The Lamb is about 2 1/2 x 2 1/2 and only takes a couple minutes to cut up.

While I really appreciate the symbolism of the "one bread" I do wish at times we Orthodox could use pre-cut particles for large celebrations. I don't know what Orthodox would do in a situation like when the Pope went to Ukraine. Probably a) commune as many as possible (first 500, let's say) or b) not give Communion to the laity (a situation that I heard happened in Moscow at Christ the Savior Cathedral one Pascha). I thought what the Ukrainian Greek Catholics did was quite ingenious given the unusual circumstances, and allowed as many people to receive Communion as possible.

S'Bohom!

-Dave

My guess is that the priest was not totally familiar with the practice of some Byzantine Catholics which use pre-cut prosphora. I imagine there is a bit of variation with this practice as well. Perhaps those familiar with the use of pre-cut prosphora could explain how it is used in some Byzantine Catholic parishes at the proskimedia and at the fraction.

My take on the letter from the OCA priest is that to use any pre-cut prosphora (either for the commemorations or for the fraction) is totally foreign to Orthodox practice and could not be justified because of a large number of communicants.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

David,

Слава Ісусу Хрісту!

Thanks for your rather complete description of how things work. I, as usual mistakenly, presume that people who are discussing these are prehaps more familiar with the services.

Bob

I have never attended a BC Liturgy that was not a "specific intention" Liturgy for the health or repose of soul for some one, or couple, or for parish in general. The intentions, of course, are published in the bulletin.
Are all Eastern Catholic Churches so tied into the formally recorded "stipend" system -- I know that an eparchial chancery overseer is supposed to "check the books" of each parish -- that the Orthodox way is not possible?
Did the "Instruction" have anything recommend on this point?
Thank you for your reply(s).

Durak, we often have liturgies in my Ukrainian Catholic parish that are "nonintentional" (?) or with no specific "Mass intention" as the Latins would say.

Excellent point and one which I think is risky to bring up. The concept of 'stipend' is not offensive to me at least, it is just another way of 'buying' prosfora and submitting it with a list of living and dead to commemorate. The latter is what is offensive. The proskomedia in the Byzantine Liturgy is not limited to one commemoration. But the way that Rome, it seems, has enforced this in the United churches is offensive.

It is my understanding that that can only be one 'intention' per mass/liturgy. But our proskomedia does not work that way! Just another example of something that does not fit. I heard one BC priest acquantance mention that he wanted to eliminate this practice of stipends in his parish but whoever follows will put it back I bet.

If the priest is interested in receiving the stipend, what if small loaves were offered at the door and sheets were available? Don't you think he would get $10.00 a liturgy? Oh yeah you gotta figure the cost of the flour etc, so what? I still think the priest would come out winning. Of course then the names would not appear in the bulletin.

My understanding is that on each Sunday and HolyDay of Obligation one mass/liturgy is supposed to be said 'pro populo' that is
for the people.' Of course every Liturgy is for the people no matter how many intentions there are. This is one of the points of defending multiple liturgies on Sundays, etc. One mass has to be for the people the other(s) for 'intentions.'

Sorry to be so passionate on this issue but I think the BCs have lost so much in this it has to be said.

Friends,

As to pre-cut particles (from my genral experience): The Lamb is 2x2x1/4. The other particles are a uniform 1/4x1/4x1/4 and these are used for both the commerations and to commune the people. At "One is holy..." the Lamb is divided in 4 pieces.

As to commemorations: A priest may accept only one stipend per Liturgy, and at least one Liturgy on Sundays and Holy Days must be offered for the people stipend free. However, the priest may commemorate as many people he wants with the particles at the Proskomede at any Divine Liturgy. There is no real conflict between our traditions and Rome's directives other than one may think the priest gets jipped by not being able to get a little extra money by way of commemoration prosphora/particles.

In Christ,
Lance

Lance,

So then if someone wants a 'public commemoration' (perhaps a term I am inventing here) on Sunday, there must be two (or more) liturgies?

Bob

When I raised the topic of "specific intention" Liturgies, my concern was not what the priest could make dollar-wise. My concern was to inquire about the degree to which BC's must buy into the Roman idea that Graces "generated" (is that the correct term?) by a Mass/Liturgy are "applied" (I believe that is the correct term) to the intended one or ones as they are to no one else. I hear both both RC and BC Catholics who offered the stipend say, "This is my Mass/Liturgy for ......"
This seems very unEastern. To do away with the stipend system seems a way to get away from this Latin mindset. No?

[ 07-26-2002: Message edited by: durak ]

Yup, that's how I've seen it done.

[ 07-26-2002: Message edited by: Bob King ]

Sounds like what is done at the Uniontown "Otpust" to me.

Is this in the "Ordo" or in a LituRgikon?

Bob - so many typoes!

[ 07-26-2002: Message edited by: Bob King ]

Man, you guys are getting Latinized if you're going to start specifying dimensions of pre-cut particles

Us Ukies don't know nuthin 'bout that stuff.