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I have several comments on Church singing in the Ukrainian Catholic Church:

- Often people think that the melody is more important than the words. This becomes increasingly problematic when singing in Ukrainian or English. They keep the melody unaltered and try to squish the words in, often putting the accent on the wrong syllable. This makes me mad. <-- not this mad, but close.

- For some reason, people don't like choir singing in churches and prefer congregational singing (maybe they had bad experiences with choirs?). Personally, I think sometimes we need choir singing for important occasions to make the services more "festive". Especially weddings and one-time occasions like that. Good choirs demand hard work and planning. Work is good.

- Finally, people often say: "That cantor sang something wrong" or "They sing tone 2 wrong at the Parish". There is no single way to sing something. There are many different chants, coming from different regions. And even in a single chant there are many different variations. In Russian Orthodox chant they have tonnes of Cherubicons that sounds very similar but each one has a slight variation and it gets its own name. In our church, we say another way is wrong.

Daniil

Daniil,
I agree with you on the choir part. There are so many awesome things composed out there that are out of this world. But...........

At our church dedication last December, we organized a choir and sang Bortyansky, Koshytz, and Kytasty composed parts. I thought it was cool and we in the choir practiced long long hours and very hard. Some people liked it but others didn't because instead of congregational singing like we always do, the said it was a concert.

Here's a solution: Our typical congregational singing is nice in many ways, so here's what you do. Get Joseph Roll's (I think thats his name) book with all of our music, which is all of our music writtenfor a full choir. When done right, not only does it sound good, but those not in the choir can sing along too.


Daniil said- "Often people think that the melody is more important than the words. This becomes increasingly problematic when singing in Ukrainian or English. They keep the melody unaltered and try to squish the words in, often putting the accent on the wrong syllable. This makes me mad. <-- not this mad, but close."

That is why I don't like hearing a Ukrainian Catholic Liturgy done in English because the music is based upon Old Slavonic/ Ukrainian. The music flows with the language and when translated and attempted in Englsh, it doesn't flow. Plus translations vary everywhere. You have Jews or it can be Israelites or Abyss has been Hades orNow and forever and ever or Unto ages of ages. Too confusing.

Until I hear English done real well, I will take Ukie or Old Slavonic.

Yes, I agree with you on all parts. In the early 1900s many composers in Russia tooks regular chants and then added really amazing harmonies to them, making them sound even better. I think stuff like this exists for Galician chant but I am not sure if it is all that good. Regular harmonies for Galician chant are good.

The liturgy is bad even in Ukrainian. The liturgy in Galician chant in Ukrainian still follows the accents and rhtymn of the Church Slavonic.

Our Father
The way we sing it now in Ukrainian
"nekhai sviatytsa I-mia tvoye" (accent on "I")

The way it should be
"nekhai sviatytsa i-MIA tvoye" (accent on "MIA")

The choir director at the Lviv Theological Academy tried to correct the problem, but when people started singing with the choir, all his corrections were drowned out by the people singing the way they thought was right.

Daniil

[ 07-15-2002: Message edited by: Daniil ]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear friend Daniil,

Long time, no see! I pray that you are doing well, and your family the same.

As you know, your father, your uncle, Prof. Joseph Roll, Fr. John Sianchuk, and I have been working and working to develop a pewbook that will have accents which work the English language properly, maintaining the samoilka as best as possible.

I hope you're not writing off all of that work.

We just had two big occasions in the Byzantine Metropolitan Province that involved choirs. Because of the ratio of choir singing to congregational singing, many people in attendance were saddened because their voices could not be raised in song. So, that balance between the offering of the choir and the voice of the faithful needs to be taken into account in any planning.

God willing, we will cross paths soon.

Z Bohom!
J. Michael Thompson

Yes, the Pewbook will indeed be great, although possibly too thick to fit into a pew's "slots".

Personally, I like it, although some of the settings may not be what everyone is used to. But that's good, because it means you have to pay attention.

It will be a very valuable asset to any singer. However, being my father's son, I must show some opposition to it and criticize it, at least a bit.

Daniil

Let me ring the English bell.


The music serves the words.
The music serves the words.
The music serves the words.


Yes, it's past time to arrange things so musically the AccENTs are on the right syLLABles, but even so, I will argue until I'm blue that a Liturgy sung well in English (even using melodies composed for Slavonic) that all present, even the children and my husband understand, is to be preferred to a liturgy sung well in Slavonic, that maybe 8 elderly people from the Old Country and two scholars understand.

The music serves the words.
The music serves the words.
The music serves the words.

Why? Because the Liturgy has a catechetical value which is lost if the people don't understand it. What happened to the 1000 year Tradition of Liturgy in the vernacular? Oh - "except in America."

Our people need to know their faith, and praying in a language they don't know doesn't teach it. On "Slavonic Sundays" at my parish, there are fewer children present - and tell me PLEASE, how Slavonic serves the cause of evangelization? (And by "evangelization" I mean spreading the Good News of Jesus Christ to people who do not know Him - not just to wayward Slavs & disaffected Roman Catholics.)

And yeah, I do love the Slavonic Liturgy, well done, in a time & place where people who want to be there can pray & enjoy it, and folks like my husband and most of our other WASP converts without a gift for language don't have to try to pray while singing words they don't understand.

Sharon


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

I agree with Sharon.

Choirs are wonderful but they, in general, prevent the people from singing. There is certainly a place for them but in the Byzantine-Ruthenian Church they are not the norm. A good friend of mine is fond of saying that "In the Greek Church, the priest and the psalti pray. In the Russian Church, the priest and choir pray. But in the Carpathian Church, everyone prays!" How true!

Liturgical music must always be subservient to the Gospel. That which helps us to proclaim the Gospel is good, that which does not, is not good. As we engage to proclaim the Gospel to America (in English!) we will undoubtedly develop our own American authentic chant. For some future generation this will be as heart felt as our current chant is to us of this generation.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Professor Thompson, I agree most heartedly. We have been "beta testing" the English Divine Liturgy you and your cohorts have put together in the Stamford diaconal program for the last two summers now from some draft texts Father Peter Galadza provided to us.

I for one am very excited about the new music in our church that you all have so painstakingly put together. I like the mix of Kyivan, Galician and even a little Prostopinje in these settings, and also love the flexibility such as singing Only Begotten Son in Tone 2 Resurrectional, We have Seen the True Light in Tone 2 Samohlasni, etc. I have already started using some of these settings in my own parish.

We in the Stamford diaconal program affectionately call you, Joe Roll, and Fathers Peter and Roman Galadza and John Sianchuk the "Cantors Five". Are you going to go on tour or make a live album?

Subdeacon Randolph, a sinner

[ 07-15-2002: Message edited by: Diak ]

Ukrainian Catholic, I used to think some of those things about Ukrainian and Slavonic vs. English until I visited St. Elias in Brampton for the first time about five years ago...Father Roman has done wonders with setting music to English usage. Besides the language of the translation itself, accent/inflection, cadence, tempo, etc. need to be considered when singing any translation from the music of the mother language.

As an educator, I have a question.

If there is going to be 'new music' (and perhaps some new words) how are the people going to be taught the "novi styjl"? Many of our cantors do a great job in leading the congregation, but they are not really musicians, and -- while they are great at leading what we the folks-in-the-pews already know, they are going to have to be both real liturgical-music divas in performing the music (while the rest of us sort of fumble along) as well as fast learners of the 'new stuff'.

Is it really worth it? Small, incremental changes gradually introduced can work. Wholesale change is a recipe for disaster. (I was in seminary when the 'new' Roman stuff came along. Yikes! And they weren't in the process of changing a pretty time-honored music -- just texts.)

Actually, if we take a model from the old country (whichever), folks would gather in inns and pubs and other locations and have a folk-song and church-song fest. Folks would sing along to the accordian or bandura or whatever, but they learned the new music and got a chance to makeup their own harmonies (including the beloved Carpatho 'thirds') to accompaniment of beer and sausage and the ever-beloved cabbage.

So, has the liturgical commission of the Ruthenians set aside funds to support these parish get-togethers so that the folks can hear and learn (and critique/modify) the music that is being propounded? Remember: if you feed them, they will come.

Blessings! (in the 12th tone)

As stated many times here on this forum, the Subcarpatian-Rus' Church has a plainchant congregational liturgical musical tradition while her sister Galician-Rus', Kyivan-Rus' and Northern- (i.e. Muscovite)Rus' Churches have always had both a congregational chant and choir tradition. When the Subcarpathian-Rus' Prostopinije is thoughtfully and carefully reworked and translated into English, then and only then will it sound good. Hastily and recklessly translated Prostopinije doesn't sound good, it sounds like garbage!! Instead of being ignorant and say things like "let's make up a new American Chant (what ever that is?) why don't we in the Ruthenian Metropolia in America create a real Liturgical Commission and ask(here's a crazy thought)learned and seasoned Cantors for their input!! I guess that would make too much sense and God knows we can't have that kind of nonsense in our Metropolia!!

Ung-Certez

Dear Ung, maybe the Cantors Five will hire out to help you guys next...

Dr. John, when someone sings something that is terribly wrong I usually say it is in Tone 9 (get it, eight tones, tone 9, oh well, pretty corny cantor's joke I guess).

[ 07-15-2002: Message edited by: Diak ]

Oh, I have no difficulty believing there is a Tone 9. While getting my MA in music, the theory professor discussed theoretical keys. Some of our singers sing in them, I think. Must be something like scriptural references to speaking in unknown tongues. I have also heard some singers sing notes that fall somewhere between the half steps in western notation. So Tone 9? Hey, I believe it.

Here is a joke about Tone 9 you may know:

Cantor exams were being held at the seminary. The precentor of the seminary choir was testing the seminarians on their knowledge of the tones. Everything was going well until it was the know-it-all seminarian, Vitaly's turn. The precentor could not stand him because he thought he was so perfect. For this reason the precentor was determined to make this a most difficult examination. "Sing Tone 3 Bulgarian!" he demanded. Vitaly sang it without a hitch. "Tone 3 Podoben 'Kijmy pokhvalamy'!" Again, he sang it perfectly. Then, as a last resort, the precentor demanded "Tone 9!" To his delight, Vitaly began to sing. The precentor chuckled to himslef, until he preked up his ears and listened to the words Vitaly was singing: "O unwise and foolish command..." (Ode 5 of the Canon of the Exaltation of the Cross, I think)

Daniil