www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology New Byzantine Catholic, concerned about Revisions of the Divine Liturgy

Hi Folks,

I grew up a post-Vatican II Roman Catholic, and I joined a local Ruthenian Byzantine Rite parish last fall. I was looking for a Catholic parish that still had reverence and sacred character. The Tridentine option was not really a viable option, as the nearest Indult is 85 miles away. Furthermore, I did not grow up with the Tridentine Mass. I grew up in a very liberal Roman Catholic church with a very irreverent, un sacred Novus Ordo mass. The Tridentine Mass is as foreign to me as the Byzantine Mass was the first time I attended one.

But now I'm Byzantine. I will stay there. If a Tridentine Mass becomes available, I'll visit often, but I'm staying Byzantine, and we're going to complete the paperwork to change Rites.

My concern at present is the difficulty in discerning what the changes in the revision of the Divine Liturgy will mean to a former Roman Rite Catholic seeking sanity after suffering the abuses of a poorly done Novus Ordo mass.

I have seen several references to the long awaited revision as a "Novus Ordo" Byzantine Liturgy, to include inclusive language and other imprudent additions the Roman Rite liturgy suffered with the introduction of the Novus Ordo.

If these fears are well-founded, then I may not have found the spiritual home I thought I had finally reached. A "Novus Ordo-ization" of the Divine Liturgy would be a heartbreak that would send us back out searching once again, probably back to the Indult Latin Mass.

Where can a lay person get a good summary of the facts regarding this revision? Will it affect the Canon, i.e., consecration?

There is debate on this Forum, and I've reviewed as much as I could, but being new to Eastern Catholicism, I simply do not have the knowledge or expertise to wade through it.

Any input would be appreciated.

You will probably just have to wait and see like the rest of us. I haven't seen the proposed changes, so I have no idea. If they are faithful to the Greek texts, I see no problem with them. I will say that some Latinizations have been around long enough for people to think they really are part of Tradition. I won't mind seeing those Latinizations removed.

And it's hard to reply without a better understanding of what you mean by "Novo Ordo-ization".

The only specific you mention is inclusive language. But even this remark is not really specific. This broad rubric includes both translations that are more accurate, and those that entail serious error. I thought this essay from the Holy Trinity Cathedral website, in the context of English language Bible translations, gave a nice discussion of the difference.

http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/nrsv.html
(See ON THE POSITIVE SIDE ... HOWEVER ...)

You know - I thought similarly, but there are differences in arguments between Novos Ordo problems and the current debates on the Divine Liturgy.

First of all, the majority of the complaints I have (and many of my colleagues) is not that the Missa Normativa is *BAD* - sure there are many traditionalist arguments of how words were changes, how it's an abomination, how it's not pleasing to God, etc....

The Missa Normativa can be very reverent and beautiful - look at the mass on EWTN - or even the Papal Funeral.

The problem is that of liturgical abuse - priests who add, subtract, or modify the liturgy without authority to do so.

The key is authority.

As a similar newcomer to the East, I feel your plight with regards to this Liturgy argument. But, honestly, until I see a REAL copy of the proposed text or even the promulgated text, I'm refraining from any serious comment.

There is no lack of Byzantine Catholic jurisdictions and parishes in America who do not derive from the southern slopes of the Carpathians and therefore are not connected with the Pittsburgh Metropolia and will be unaffected by whatever text Pittsburgh introduces.

Incognitus

Yes, but many will be effected.

SS Cyril & Methodius Pray For Us!

Most (small "o") orthodox Roman Catholics would see the protestantization of the Latin Liturgy, -- the elimination of cohesive catechesis on the sacrifical nature of the mass itself, the subordination of a unique priesthood to the "priesthood of all believers," the poor if not downright illicit vernacular translations from the Latin, the rampant deviations from the Rubrics of the mass -- to be the problems of the Novus Ordo liturgy.

So a Roman Rite Catholic entering into the Byzantine Rite is going to be concerned if the Divine Liturgy is going through its own "spirit of Vatican II" update or liberalization.

However, from what I am reading, this does not appear to be a well-grounded fear with the Revision.

Some Latin Catholics may not like the removal of Latinizations from the Byzantine Rite Divine Liturgy. I don't have a problem with that. Going back to Tradition, East or west, is a good thing. A liberalizing, protestantizing, or progressivist agenda in revising the Divine Liturgy would be something to worry about.

And since "inclusive language" was part and parcel of the liberalization of the Roman Rite, cradle Byzantines need to understand why Roman Rite newcomers would have a knee jerk reaction to the subject.

I hope this clarifies my question.

Glory to Jesus Christ,

I, as most do, hear about these changes as we read the booklets set out for the various services.

This past Lent, I think it was during one of the last Liturgies of Presanctified Gifts, there was inclusive language that really made it less than enjoyable. Psalm 104 was so bad I found myself shaking my head.

There was a rumor going around that said the language was changed to not sound so negative
I keep asking our Pastor and he never has an answer.

The Liturgy of St John Crysostom has been around for a long time and it has changed very little in my life. I am not too concerned with it. I do not think that the people will allow any serious changes that effect our Church Tradition.

Good, that is what I wanted to know.

Is there a parallel "modernist" agenda in the Byzantine Rite? The movement to return to the Eastern roots of Byzantine Catholicism would seem to be, and I hope it is, the antithesis of the modernist tendencies that have ravaged the post-Vatican II church.

If you read some of the posts concerning
what's happening in Passaic you have to
wonder.............

Forgive my ignorance. What IS happening in Passaic?

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
Christ is among us!
I have seen the revised translation of the Divine Liturgy for the Pittsburgh Metropolia. I do not believe that the changes are all that significant.

It is true that they have translated the Greek word "anthopos" (sp.?) using "inclusive" terms, since the meaning of the word in Greek means human beings, and there is a different word in Greek for a male. Where the original Greek text means a male, that is retained and the use of the male pronoun is also maintained where warrented.

God is also Father, Son, and Holy Spirit! And is also refered using "He!"

A bigger concern on my part this their continued surrender to the Latinizers by not translating "pravoslavnie" as "orthodox". They keep using that ridiculous phrase "Christians of the True Faith." Faithful Byzantine Catholics should be more concerned with that foolishness.

Thank you for this perspective Father, it helps clarify the issue very much.