www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology "New Translation "of the Liturgy

Glory forever!

Father, bless!

I must entirely disagree. The changes are major, a decisive departure not only from the Ruthenian Recension, but also from the practice of most of the rest of the "Constantinopolitan" liturgical discipline.

Father, I have seen pictures of your icons, and admire your work.

Suppose, I were to take up icon painting, and begin.... Now, I like the stars on the mantle of the Mother of God, and think, "If three are good, maybe four will be better!" Or, "I think one would be just fine, and it can stand in for the other two as well, a legitimate simplification." After all, it is only a trivial matter.

You would rightly object, that there is a theology behind the three stars, and my icons were a departure from the tradition! In fact, they are "uncanonical".

I say, your objection is "much ado about nothing" and my icon of the Mother of God is perfectly fine, and you are hooked up on trivialities.

You would be right, if you suggest that I don't know enough about the tradition of iconography to take up iconography.

With respect Father, the proposed revisions of the Liturgy are significant, grave, and show a culpable ignorance of the tradition. They are not "much ado about nothing" at all. It is evident from the quality of the proposed revision, that those involved are not sufficiently qualified to conduct this revision, and what they have produced is "uncanonical" and outside the tradition.

What makes it all so disturbing, is that this revision, is so un-needed. It is a corruption of the tradition. It is a distraction from the work of evangelization so dear to your heart! It will not draw people to our Church, as much as it will drive people out! I might call the proposed Revision of the Liturgy, as "anti-Evangelization" of our Church.

Nick

Nick,

Unless you show the text, or someone shows it, you are beating at the wind. What's the point? Show the text. Father has seen it. I trust him. Have you seen the text? If so, show it. The bishops have "sown a wind and they are reaping a whirlwhind" by not showing, but until you show us what you are railing against you seem guilty of causing needless scandal.

Dan L

Dear Dan,
CHRIST IS RISEN! That will teach me to watch what I write more carefully. The LXX, of course, applies to the Old Testament.

On the point you raise concerning the bizarre nature of a discussion over a text which so few people have seen: you are correct. The problem is that secrecy leads to this result, which is why the Church should not engage in such secrecy. I've already written on one of these threads that the sensible thing for the commission to do is publish their proposed text for purposes of study, and solicit articles on various aspects of it. But I'm not holding my breath waiting for the commission to do that.

in the Risen Lord,

Incognitus

Incognitus,

I fully agree. I would suppose that publishing it here would cause repercussions unless the commission released it. Secrecy is going to kill us. It will drive people away. True leadership would have put a study version in the hands of the people long ago. True leadership would do so now.

I say to the bishops and to the commission PLEASE, PUBLISH A STUDY VERSION OF THE TEXT. By so doing you will regain the confidence of the people and will remove a roadblock to evangelization.

Dan L

Glory to Jesus Christ!

The commissions (IELC and IEMC) are established by the Council of Hierarchs and function under their authority. As commissions, they are not empowered to publish anything.

Prof. J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA

First post to the new forum. Thanks to the fellow parishioners who mentioned it to me.

I came to the Byzantine Catholic Church -- Fr. Tom's Church -- without any impressions at all.

My first impression upon beholding it was, "Wow!" My second was "Woah!"

The wow: How alive the place is! The church was packed, the chant enveloping, the incense intoxicating. And the preaching was dynamite.

The woah: How sublime the liturgy is! I felt, as so many who encounter authentic Eastern Christian worship from the perspective of a Latin Rite Catholic do, that I was touching the eternal -- not just touching but hearing, tasting, smelling it.

There is something about how ancient so many Byzanting practices are that helps to conjure that sense of the eternal. After all, what's eternal lasts forever; something that has lasted an age can give us a taste of that which has been unto ages of ages.

But the thing about Byzantine Catholicism is that it's so old, it's new. In the bald light of modernity, the Byzantine jewel shimmers like a thing never seen before -- shocking, entrancing, almost blinding.

Icons may be old, but they're new to me. Men may have kissed icons for centuries, but the day I first did so it was the newest, freshest thing I'd done in years.

-- Eric J. Scheidler

The proposed changes to the liturgy are NOT good changes.

Slava Isusu Christu!

I have become very agitated with all the posts on the various sub forums regarding proposed changes of various and numerous types. I am consequently observing extremely strong opinions resulting in topics like "Would you leave the church?" and many polls that are designed to place <force?> the believer onto one or the other side of the fence.

With the blessings of the Holy Spirit, we have a new leader of our Churches, His Holiness Benedict XIV. He is strong, and has provided a solid viewpoint of his vision for the One Church of Christ.

However, while I see wonderous and amazing posts regarding the establishment of dialogue between our Orthodox and Prostestant brethern, I am also seeing posts that I feel are tearing at the heart and soul and foundation of our specific Church!

I wish to share three thoughts with all of you:

15"These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately )Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them.

Mark 4:15

5 Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

1 Corinthians 7:5

9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Revelation 12:9

Am I scared and paranoid? Yes I am. I feel that Satan is extremely active on our earth and is in the midst of this!

Lord have mercy! Lord have mercy! Lord have mercy!

In Christ,

Michael

The secrecy that is associated with the new liturgical changes will only fuel more rumors speculation. Enough of the secrecy, post it on the Archeparchial website where all the faithful can view it, PDF file if at all possible!

Ungcsertezs

many polls that are designed to place <force?> the believer onto one or the other side of the fence.

Polls are strictly voluntary. If you felt you were forced onto one side or the other that was not the purpose.

Nec

No, Not a pdf.

A Word file so that it can be sent back with changes tracked.

Actually, as I've noted before I am amazed and grateful that Fr. Petras has spent so much time here, taken a great deal of input.

What to do with it? The idea that there should be some sort of democratic process at work is highly innovative modernism - Byzantine Silliness (is that the euphemism, Alex?). And while it is doubtlessly true that that our laity is far better educated today than it was a centuray ago (adult literacy didn't break the 50% mark in Zakarpatskaya until the Soviet era), and thus there is a non-negligible likelihood of some useful input, it must be admitted that we haven't acquitted ourselves all that well. Apart from symptomatic expressions of our hurt.

I like the differentiation of expertise and activities in civilization. Those who have worked on these revisions haven't done so because of having too much time on their hands, but because they have the gifts to take on that work. Not everyone is an evangelist, and not everyone is a liturgist, not everyone is fluent in the Greek and Slavonic, or, for that matter, English.

In His wisdom, God did not insist that we all become isolated desert monastics, but gave us a church with individuals of complementary talents and charisms to support each other. If we can find it in ourselves to accept that, and, more importantly, to do that.

Michael,

I suggest these for your reading:

1) 1 Corinthians 11:2: ". . . keep the traditions, as I delivered {them} to you."

2) 2 Thessalonians 2:15: ". . . hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

3) 2 Thessalonians 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother that walks disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."

Michael Cerularius

Dear Nicholas,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I agree with you. I came to the Byzantine rite in part to get AWAY from the destructive liturgical innovations in the Roman church... I am therefore suspicious of changes that are unnecessary, particularly as regards our liturgy. If nothing is wrong with it, then why mess with it? The only reason I can think of is that those making all of these changes have an agenda that is not in the best interest of the Church.

"The Church lays down a rule that this faith has its solemnities appointed by either the Scriptures or the tradition of the forefathers. No further addition in the way of observance must be added, because innovation is unlawful."

Tertullian


Innovation is unlawful! From innovation, protect us Lord! From revision, defend us Lord!

Who is going to stand up, and defend the tradition that was entrusted to us, when even the bishops (ordained to defend the tradition) want to set it aside?

Glory forever!

I'm afraid you are right. It is a very misguided enterprise, and I pray that Rome will intervene and stop it.

Sometimes I wonder if our Byzantine Catholic Church has a self-destructive tendency, like some mad child that is driven to injure itself.

Nick