www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology "New Translation "of the Liturgy

Here's something we agree upon.

Dan L

The resolution of the apparent contradiction is actually simple. Your understanding of what Rome "forbids" and what the liturgical edition entails is ill-informed. Perhaps it is twisted by your politics, which you gave voice to in an earlier thread. This solution also resolves your dilemma of conscience.

In practice I'm afraid you are correct. The practice, though, is killing us. I was providing the classical definition of the bishop's task not the actual practice. Leaders must take the heat. Few there be who will.

Sadly, we only seem to have a handful of priests who are willing to step forward and be leaders. What is to become of us?

Dan L

It is the only basis that the whole Church can agree upon.

It is what the new translation should have been.

Dear djs,

Have you read the Roman directives on the translation of liturgical texts into the vernacular? Exactly how have I misunderstood them? I thought they were quite clear.

They offer good advice. If it had been followed, this boring dispute would not be needed.

Nick

Please document "errors" that constitute revising the "faith".

Nicholas:

It is impossible to pinpoint how you have misunderstood them, since you have not given any specifics of their violation, whatsoever. You might consider, however, that Rome, who presumably understands the guidelines, approved the texts.

Christ is Risen!
Forty years ago, I doubt that any Russian parish used the troparia on the Beatitudes. Then ROCOR admitted some traditionalist Greeks ("Old-calendarists") who have long since departed ROCOR but who influenced some liturgical practices, including the use of the full Typica and Beatitudes at the Liturgy in many parishes. The Russian Typicon never leaves a choice as to whether to use the antiphons (shorter) or Typica and Beatitudes (longer), and prescribes the latter for all Sundays that are not a great feast of the Lord. It has long been customary in parishes to greatly abridge the Typical Psalms and omit the troparia on the Beatitudes, which is reflected in musical compositions. The full forms had long been a purely monastic usage.

Today, many (but probably not most) ROCOR parishes use the unabridged Typica and Beatitudes with troparia, but always reading the troparia (which is done at Jordanville, too). Personally, I think the troparia should either be sung or omitted, but I've never heard them sung at a Russian Church in the USA.

Photius

Dan,

thanks for the award as all-time top whiner.

You'll probably call this whining, but I would be excited to see the evidence that we are having more baptisms than funerals.

Your posts keep referring to the church dying and declining if whiners like me are listened to.

Are you aware that after a century of changes and modernizations we are already on that path?

And no one is supposed ask what is going on?

Michael Cerularius

Refer to the threads "Questions 2 and 3 and 4 on the New Translation of the Divine Liturgy" where the violations are detailed.

Refer also to another discussion thread, after a review of the legislation concerned, the concensus was that Rome did not approve, Rome was not asked for approval, and did not and would not give it.

Furthermore, I cannot imagine how Rome would approve of something, it also forbids? Do you not see the contradition?

Michael,

Why not list the efforts you have made to bring people to Church? Why not list the calls you've made or letters you've written to the bishops to encourage them to show us the liturgy before it is promulgated?

Why not get involved with growing the Church instead of complaining about a liturgy you have never seen?

Dan L

Dear Michael,

Frankly, if we cannot faithfully hand on our tradition from one generation to another, and if we cannot keep our Byzantine Liturgy whole and intact, perhaps we deserve to die, as a Church.

Nick

Friends,

I have little respect for those who complain about a liturgy they haven't seen or about modernizations in the Church unless they talk directly with their bishops. What do you have to lose. If you are a priest you might lose a plumb appointment but so what? If you are a layperson you won't even lose that.

But I would encourage you to have more information available than you've shown here. Why should a bishop pay any attention to you if you don't know what you are talking about? Get your ducks in order and go see him.

The Bible is clear that we aren't to complain to each other. That's just gossip. We are to complain to God, even against God. He alone can do something about your complaints.

Go for it.

dan l

Dan,

What is more important -- not only have they not seen the new liturgy and complain about it, the complaints they bring tend to be based upon false perceptions of history. The biggest one I have seen is that the liturgy was just initiated by St John Chrysostom, and has not undergone any changes and any change done would just be tampering perfection. Then they dare call the authorities (through charism of the Holy Spirit or academic and theological credentials) to be amateurs.

Knowing the material is not important for those who want to find reason for scandal. It is for those who care about truth. What can we learn from this?

Dan,

How do you know that I haven't seen a copy of the new translation?

So if I talk directly to a bishop then I am allowed to complain? Because I met with a bishop about two years ago and the one before him a couple of years before that and we had a nice talk. We clearly didn't agree on everything., but it was congenial.

I hope I don't lose my whining award because of this.


Michael Cerularius