www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Shroud of Turin and Orthodoxy

Well, for one, as has been mentioned many times, the nail marks are consistent with crucifixions of that era, moreso than just about ALL images of the crucifixion...crucifixion would not have worked otherwise. Another point is that the spear wound is exactly where it should be according to the scriptural account...while art of the time consistently placed the wound on one side and place, the Shroud has it on the opposite side and between the proper ribs. Those are just two examples. There are other examples, much less visible to the layman, that were discussed in conjunction with the scriptural accounts. With the Bible and the Shroud, members of a theological commission and physicians from the Mayo Clinic (if I'm not mistaken) prepared a post-mortem report on the death of Jesus. I used to be able to find this in the EWTN online library, but I can't do so now...but I have it printed at home, so I know it's out there. I'm not saying that they didn't know what a body or skeleton looked like...what I am saying is that if this was a forgery, then the artist had to have an impeccable knowledge of the physiology of crucifixion in order to do this; that, or he had to have put subjects through that much torture and then that method of death in order to replicate things. The anatomical knowledge just wasn't there for them to get every detail so perfect. And I doubt that the artist would go into such painstaking detail for a forgery meant to attract financial offerings at this or that church when a more substandard image could've been used with at least as much success.

To Aklie:

I'm going to say this slowly, so pay attention. The painting of Christ, The Procrator, was not just someone's imagination. As you know, icon artists have a certain kanon they must adhere to. Where did the original artist get the concept? Not in his head? From a model. What was that model? Perhaps the Holy Napkin or the Holy Shroud. Are you with me so far?

According to people who have studied this, there are several main features of the paintings and the shroud that they have in common. Now if you looking exactly like a suspect the cops are looking for, don't come crying to me because some one else looks like you.

Its not just a coincendence. The matching description is enough for the police to arrest some one according to police records. I already pointed them out. Think about it. Also, lets get into the technical jargon then.
In order for a forger to have made the Holy Shroud they would have to :

Have traveled to the Middle East and Turkey and dropped the Shroud on plants so that the micrscopic pollen would hav been picked up. (The microsope wouldn't be invented for 300 years, but never mind.). Yes, the figure was attomicaly correct. The forgerer would have to have gotten hold of a dead body, and done some thing to the body to make it look like the person was crucified. But, they would have to have done it BEFORE the person died. Also, in Medieval Europe it was against the law to have a dead body in your possession. They would have to know about hemoglobin, and blood clotting, (again 300 years too early), decomposition of a body, (known by the Egyptians, I'll give you that point), have been to the Holy Land, and known that Christ's Body was placed in a lime stone cave. (Scripture doesn't mention that). Traces of limestone were found on the outside of the Shroud. The forgerer must have gotten hold of 2 other people to whip the body. (Evidence from the shroud shows 2 different people, with 2 different body builds did the job). That would be conspiracy, if they were caught with tampering with a dead body. They would have to have gotten hold of a person who worked with his hands, a lot because the right shoulder was more developed, as a carpenter would, and much more. Recent evidence suggests that the image was made by a person while standing up. Also, most stricking of all. African Americans complain that all of the pictures of Christ show him as blue -eyed and blond. I have NEVER seen a blue eyed and blond Christ!!!!! Maybe brown hair. Most people today speculate that Christ would have looked like the contemporary people of the Middle East, olive complexion and dark hair. But recent studies of the Shrowd show that Christ might have been blond after all!!! Thats why they killed Him. He was not like the rest of men. My theory about the painting and the Shroud is not a theory or imagination, but based on fact.

Dear Mike,

If you could, would you please elabourate on the notion that studies of the Shroud indicate that Christ could've been blond? I didn't know one could detect hair colour from the Shroud.

Brother Mike,
I started to write a serious critique of your last post but decided to just poke holes in it for the time being.

Where did the original artist get the concept? Not in his head? From a model. What was that model? Perhaps the Holy Napkin or the Holy Shroud.

The most likely candidate of where the artist got the concept is their own culture. In the time of the Roman Empire Egyptian goddesses, like Isis, started looking like Roman goddesses. Why? Because the Romans adapted Egyptian culture to their own and transformed it to forms more recognizable to them. The same with Jesus. After Constantine Mother St. Mary was portrayed much in the manner of a Roman mother in art.

Now if you looking exactly like a suspect the cops are looking for, don't come crying to me because some one else looks like you.

Sorry, but cop judgment is not convincing on matters like these.

In order for a forger to have made the Holy Shroud they would have to: Have traveled to the Middle East and Turkey and dropped the Shroud on plants so that the microscopic pollen would have been picked up.

Be careful with the "pollen' arguments. Arguments based on them (like Pre-Colonial Africans in the Americas) usually always turn out to be wrong. Besides, Middle Eastern pollen could have possibly made its way on the Shroud in any of the Crusades.

in Medieval Europe it was against the law to have a dead body in your possession.

Ah, those angelic Medieval Europeans, such pious abiders of the law weren't they? I suppose that is why there are no dungeons from Medieval Europe; the king simply didn't need them. Seriously, my favorite photograph is a picture of an elderly couple sitting on their beach chairs on grass underneath a tree. Right next to them there is a sign that reads: “Please Keep off Grass.”

They would have to know about hemoglobin, and blood clotting

No they wouldn't have to know this

They would have to have gotten hold of a person who worked with his hands, a lot because the right shoulder was more developed, as a carpenter would.

Loooool, only carpenters have more developed right shoulders? Furthermore, are there no carpenters in Europe? Or can't an artist just draw one shoulder more developed?

African Americans complain that all of the pictures of Christ show him as blue -eyed and blond. I have NEVER seen a blue eyed and blond Christ!!!!!

So, you know all this stuff about the Shroud and the paintings on the Ceilings of 6th Century but you have never seen a blue eyed blond Christ? That is strange. Granted, the blond hair is more frequent in the baby Christ paintings than in the adult ones but you should still have seen it by now. And what do you mean "complain' I think a better description is "reject', i.e. African Americans reject the Blue-eyed and blond hair "Christ' that was forced on them in slavery…you gotta problem with that?

Most people today speculate that Christ would have looked like the contemporary people of the Middle East, olive complexion and dark hair.

That is not "speculation' that is the opinion of mainstream science and common sense.

But recent studies of the Shrowd show that Christ might have been blond after all!!!

I can almost hear the sigh of relief in your voice.

Thats why they killed Him.

I beg you a pardon?

Aklie Semaet

[ 05-13-2002: Message edited by: Aklie Semaet ]

Dear Mike,

Listen carefully, I'm only going to repeat this once, but there really is no need for the condescending tone in your post.

There are many who venerate the Shroud as the real McCoy.

Weren't you the one who disagreed that St Luke wrote all those icons?

What are we going to do with you?

Alex

I read previously in this thread that since St. John describes Jesus being buried in the customary manner, there could be no Shroud (one cloth). Let us not forget the Gospels also tell us that our Lord was buried hastily due to it being the Sabbath. A cloth could very well have been, and Jesus wrapped hastily, without shaving, washing, etc. Isn't it believed that the woman were returning to the tomb in order to finish and properly bury Jesus?

There is no conclusive evidence of HOW the icon of our Lord was made on the Shroud. Some have attempted to duplicate it by a number of means, but have never bean able to do an exact image. While the Shroud image can be made 3-D, other images attempting to duplicate the Shroud, while coming close, just don't cut the mustard.

The evidence of the Vail matching the image of the Shroud, and blood type evidence between the Vail, the Shroud, and other Eucharistic miracles is SOLID.

What I think needs to be done is, with the the technology of DNA, DNA tests should be done on the Vail, Shroud, and other Eucharistic miracles and compared. This would prove everything (I feel)! DNA technoilogy is a gift of God (through man's intellect) and should be used to concide with faith. Besides, isn't that what we are on this Earth for? To become saints by using God's gifts to us?

Just my humble thoughts...

God bless all!

Discerning

Dear Discerning,

Unfortunately, this would be the case of science itself was as objective as it thinks it is.

But it isn't.

For every study and "conclusive" evidence, there are those who disagree with the methodology or other aspects and say the conclusions were wrong etc.

I think we should leave the Shroud alone and venerate it for what we know by faith it is.

Alex

Alex,

Very Wise, and very true!

Discerning

Dear Discerning,

No problem, Big Guy!

It used to be people would be overly skeptical about Relics such as these.

And it is true the medieval Church actually and consistently denied the validity of the Shroud of Turin.

Scientists studying it have come to believe in Christ as a result.

Who was it who said that what St Thomas did at Easter, ask to see the nail marks of Christ, wasn't wrong at all.

We do the same whenever we approach the Epitaphion Shroud during Holy Week and venerate Christ's Wounds.

Christ bears His Wounds as trophies of our salvation, according to St Nicholas Cabasilas.

They are the "Marks of the Lord Jesus."

Whenever someone presents us their version of Christ today, we should always ask to see the nail marks.

Without them, that "version" is surely a counterfeit.

Alex

OC,

MMMMmmmmmm, philisophical/theological discussion...it's nirvana, man!

Yes, Christ died for our sins. Any discussion of Christ should ALWAYS remember that! That is why the veneration of the Holy Shroud is so powerful on Good Friday/Holy Saturday. The first time I venerated the Holy Shroud (I don't know how to spell "Plastaneecha"), I was so moved that it brought tears to my eyes. A lot of Byzantine traditions do that to me...

Move me that is, not make me cry!

Yes, we should always ask to see the nail marks for the true Christ. Our Byzantine(including Orthodox)/Roman traditions have them! Many Protestant churches do not include the corpus on the cross anymore. Not knocking Prots, but reality is reality. Something to think about...

Just some thoughts on your thoughts of my thoughts (hee hee hee) !

Take care, God Bless!
Discerning

Dear Discerning,

What are you doing up so late?

The Old Believers have a beautiful tradition regarding the wearing of the Cross around the neck.

If anyone should ask us what "that" is, our answer should always be, quoting St Paul, "I bear on my body the Marks of the Lord Jesus."

Cool or what?

Alex

Very cool, very cool indeed! An excellent way to look at it!!!

I was (am) up so late do to the job at the time. I am presently up so late because I am trying to get back to "sleep" pattern, couldn't sleep, and thought I'd speak with you.

Hee hee hee....

[ 06-12-2002: Message edited by: Discerning ]

Dear Discerning,

Well, one of the best ways to prepare for sleep is to imagine pictures in colour rather than continue thinking in concepts.

So imagine a beach, the blue water etc.

Also, keep your tongue from touching the sides of your mouth.

Ann Landers recommends this especially . . .

May the Seven Holy Sleepers of Ephesus restore you to your old self through refreshing sleep!

Alex