www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology The Silent Anaphora

[ 09-09-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

This is S0-0-0-0 true. When asked to comment on the Pope's Byzantine Liturgy in Ukraine, a leading Orthodox spokesman said he got the awful feeling in the pit of his stomach that he was viewing a large "Trojan horse."

[ 07-29-2002: Message edited by: durak ]

[ 09-09-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

Joe,

I really take offense at your insensitively to those of us in the western eparchy of Van Nuys.

Everone knows it's Sunday morning football in this part of the country that is at stake.

John

[ 09-09-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

I'm grateful for the support for what we are trying to do for the Liturgy.
Hope all is well in Arizonia, John!
Chtec did have a point. There simply is some bad blood between a contingent of the Orthodox Church and the Eastern Catholics. For some in the Orthodox Church, we can do nothing right. However, there are many Orthodox who are very sympathetic to us, and very interested in what we are doing. I want to emphasize, the IELC did consider very seriously the viewpoint of the Orthodox Church. In the long run, there those who are going to criticize us whatever we do, but there are others who would be open to what we are doing, in either case, we will not err if we do what we think is pastorally right for our people.
That is the most important consideration.
And, of course, we must be faithful to the call to restore our traditions. I think we have done this, our work is approved.
There is perhaps one fact of history that might confuse someone not intimately involved with us Byzantine Catholics of the Ruthenian Metropolia. If one simply goes on documentation, then it might seem that what the Inter-eparchial Liturgy Commission (IELC) has done is abbreviate and truncate the Liturgy, since they will have in hand the 1965 (English) Liturgicon, which has the full Liturgy (note, no rubrics that prayers need be silent!) with the full litanies and antiphons. Anyone proceeding from documentation would conclude that the Restored Liturgy, then, is actually a truncation. However, one must be aware that the then Bishop Nicholas (Elko) had the translators follow the 1942 Liturgy published by the Oriental Congregation, which is basically the full Church Slavonic Liturgy with a few minor adaptations for Ruthenian practice, so that there would be no question of latinization. When the Liturgy was approved, printed and distributed, however, IN FACT, the priests used the new translation, but continued to abbreviate the Liturgy and follow basically the rubrics of the 1905 Lviv (Slavonic) Liturgicon. Actually, God help them if they didn't, and since I was a young priest ordained in 1967, I can tell a few stories rom that era, but it's better if I don't. If this sounds a little strange, it was. The point is that that the restoration now will actually be a major upgrade for 90 % of our churches. The question of the elimination of litanies is not a new question, this has been done since the 1930's. I will honestly say that there is no sacred number of litanies and that the number of litanies has varied widely throughout history. To me, it seems the solution we have is best pastorally. Also, not to justify the shortening of the antiphons - again, we are advancing on what has been done in most parishes, since the Third Antiphon has not been generally sung - but just to mention that sometime in the distant past, we don't have the documentation on this, before the 9th century, someone made the decision to shorten the antiphons from the whole psalm to three verses. So, even the restoration of the "complete antiphon" would not be a complete restoration.
But this is not a point I want to argue about.

Fr. Dave

Dear Friends,

The point about how some will criticize us for being Eastern is an interesting one.

Fr. Irenaeus Nazarko, OSBM in his book on the Metropolitans of Kyiv actually cites several examples of Greek Catholic Metropolitans who, by their strict adherence to Eastern liturgical and ritual practice, won the admiration of the Orthodox.

The same is true of the late Ukrainian Met. Ilarion Ohienko, no friend of Eastern Catholics.

What I find particularly distasteful is when the same Orthodox and others who would criticize us for being "too Eastern" (i.e. a potential "fifth column" in their midst) are also those who would jump on us on the Latinization charge.

Alex

[ 09-09-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

Dear Cantor and Mentor Joe Thur,

With you, EVERY day is a red letter day!

But isn't it amazing how much has been said about the SILENT Anaphora?

Alex

[ 07-29-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

This sparked the memory of many moons ago when Fr. Taft, in an informal conversation with his students, shared his opinion that there was nothing sacred about the number "three" either for number of antiphons or the number of verses taken per psalm. His personal sense of Liturgy suggested a preference for the taking of one psalm in its entirety over doing bits of three distinct psalms. I wonder if he still thinks that way.

Dear Durak,

Nothing sacred about the number "3?"

So when the Fathers divided the Psalter into 20 groups of three kathismatia apiece, followed by three sets of three Alleluias, including the frequent reference to the three Persons of the Trinity throughout, they thought nothing of the number "3?"

If he doesn't like snippets of Psalms, that is fine, we can read the Typical Psalms in full, as some Churches do.

I wonder how many fingers he uses to make the Sign of the Cross?

And the fact that the pectoral Cross he wears with such dignified gusto is 30 inches in length with a three inch Crucifix at the end?

Hmmm . . . there's nothing special about 3 is there?

It's a good thing we can learn from theologians but aren't necessarily at their mercy.

Alex

Let me see if I get this right. Y'all out west go to the football game on Sunday morning, stay away from the beer and hot dogs, and then go to liturgy around 2:00 PM, keeping the fast until after the 3 hour Divine Liturgy, in other words until 5:00 PM ?

No, no, no! (very Byzantine) You have it all wrong. We attend the 8:00 AM Liturgy, so that we can watch the afternoon football games from back east, which are morning football games in the west. Then we go to afternoon football games. BTW, what kind of fanatic are you with an all day fast? Everyone knows real football fanatics don't fast from anything on Sundays! :p

John

Fr David wrote:


What is the solution? Is it to omit the "angel of peace" litany with the "Grant it, O Lord" responses? Someone suggested to me that they actually might be in the final text after all. Will it be in there or was that edited out?

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

[ 09-09-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]