www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Immaculate Theotokos at Annunciation?

Robert wrote recently in another thread:

"When I hear the word 'Immaculate' in reference to the Lady Theotokos, I immediately picture the The Feast of the Annunciation. This is about the time the Holy Spirit overshadows the Virgin and mysteriously absolves Her from the stain of sin in order to take on Her flesh as His own flesh. The Theotokos hymn, "It is Truly Meet," refers to Her as "Thou who without stain barest God the Word" means one thing to me: the Holy Spirit in the operation of the life of the Virgin at the time of Christ's conception."

Mirfsem wrote:

"I believe that most Orthodox would say that if there were to be a defined moment where Mary became totally free from all sin, immaculate, all pure, all holy, it would be at the Annunciation, where she, being conceived like the rest of us, willfully accepted salvation on her own behalf, as well as for the rest of humanity."

This view seems to me to be a reductionist view borrowed from Protestantism. If one reads the liturigcal texts for the Feasts of the Birth of the Theotokos and the Presentation of the Theotokos in the Temple (when according to tradition the Theotokos was received into the Temple at 3 years old) the holiness of the Theotokos as an infant is emphatically stressed.

From Great Vespers of the Nativity of the Theotokos:

"Today God who rests upon the spiritual thrones has made for Himself a holy
throne upon earth. He who made firm the heavens in His wisdom has prepared a
living heaven in His love for man. For from a barren root He has made a
life-giving branch spring up for us, even His Mother. God of wonders and
hope of the hopeless, glory be to Thee, O Lord."

From Matins:

"O Mother of God, thou hast inherited according to the promise a birth worthy
of thy purity. For as a God-given fruit hast thou been granted to her who
before was fruitless. Therefore we and all the nations of the earth without
ceasing call thee blessed."

"O holy Ann, mother of the Virgin, thou hast put forth from thy womb, against
all hope, a virgin flower according to the promise, a divine bud pure and
beautiful. Therefore as the root of our life do we call thee blessed."

From Great Vespers of the Presentation of the Theotokos:

"Led by the Holy Spirit, the holy Maid without spot is taken to dwell in the
Holy of Holies. By an angel is she fed, who is in truth the most holy Temple
of our Holy God. He has sanctified all things by her entry, and has made
godlike the fallen nature of fallen men."

"After thy birth, O Lady and Bride of God, thou hast gone to dwell in the
temple of the Lord, there to be brought up in the Holy of Holies, for thou
art thyself holy: and Gabriel then was sent to thee, O Virgin all-undefiled,
to bring thee food. All the powers of heaven stood amazed, seeing the Holy
Spirit dwell in thee. Therefore, O Mother of God without stain or blemish,
glorified in heaven and on earth, save our kind."

From Matins:

"Today has the temple become a wedding adornment and a fair chamber for the
Virgin, as it receives the living Bridal Chamber of God, pure and without
spot, she who shines more brightly than all the creation."

"The ewe-lamb of God without spot, the dove without blemish, the tabernacle
that is to hold God, the sanctuary of the glory, has chosen to dwell in the
holy temple."

"O Virgin all-undefiled, past understanding is thy wonders! Strange is the
manner of thy birth: strange is the manner of thy growing. Strange and most
marvellous are all things concerning thee, O Bride of God, and they are
beyond the telling of mortal men."

"A child in the flesh but perfect in soul, the holy Ark enters into the house
of God, there to feed upon divine grace."

These are just a sampling of the texts. Surely, the Theotokos grew in grace all her life but how can the view that she was not completely freed from sin until the Annunciation be squared with what the liturgy tells us about her? What impurity did she have before the Annunciation?

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

[This message has been edited by DTBrown (edited 10-20-2000).]

DTBrown,
There is an old saying which says "Know thyself." I sense you are a byproduct of Latinization. What you wonderfully quoted does not prove the reason or justification for the Immaculate Conception dogma. Who do you think you are fooling? Besides, I never had a Protestant background. If Protestants agree with Orthodoxy on this matter then the odds are against your Latin-thinking mind. It has always been a Middle Eastern tradition to bless the womb of a mother for bearing a great child/person and to eulogize. It is not for you to know the things of God which He provides no answer or to create/accept dogmas that are speculative & contrary to Apostolic teachings. The Virgin at Annunciation had to be cleansed from Original Sin through the power of the Holy Spirit in order that the Christ-child to be born without stain/blemish. Christ's birth is truly the "Immaculate Conception". How far back in the genealogy of Mary do you Latins want to contribute an "Immaculate Conception"? You might as well believe that St. Anne was conceived Immaculately along with her foremothers! This Immaculate Conception of Mary is contrary to Orthodoxy's understanding of Original Sin. It is the Latins who need corrective eye surgery for maintaining narrow and unacceptable view of the Theotokos that requires her to be born Sinless/Sinfree. If the Latins and the West are to survive the onslaught of modernism/secularism they need to revisit the Eastern Church who have preserved the purity of the Theotokos and begin their journey Eastward. The Latin Original Guilt will not be tolerated as they may journey back to Orthodoxy.

Robert,

Did I even mention the Immaculate Conception in this thread? I cited just a few of the numerous citations in the Menaion that emphasize the holiness of the Theotokos way prior to the Annunciation. (Those interested in more citations can send me private email and I'll send out the file.) You did not respond to any of these citations but instead repeated the "old saw" of some Orthodox polemicists regarding the Immaculate Conception. The idea that the Theotokos was purified from sin at the Annunciation is contrary to these liturgical texts. There is nothing in these texts (or any other of the texts from the Menaion) which even hint that the Theotokos was impure prior to the Annunciation--indeed the opposite is the case.

So, instead of changing the subject to the Immaculate Conception---do you accept what the liturgy of the Church says regarding the holiness of the Theotokos before the Annunciation?

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

[This message has been edited by DTBrown (edited 10-21-2000).]

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Dave,

I find it interesting that Byzantines would question the "purety" of the Blessed Virgin. Yes, the Latin Church defined the dogma recently, but it was not some "new belief" as you so aptly demonstrated with your quotes.

In JMJ,

Scott<<<
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Dear Scott,
I don't think that David is arguing for an eastern version of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. Rather, I think he's saying that the difference between the western IC doctrine and what the eastern liturgy says about our Lady's purity is so minute as to be inconsequential. The tendency of the eastern liturgy is to see our Lady as being pure from at least the time of her birth and, no doubt, even within the womb.
I think David might still say that, from an eastern point of view, there was no need for the definition of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. On the other hand, I think he would also say that it does not constitute a reason for maintaining the schism.
Am I reading you correctly, David?

Ed

To Scott and others who may not have read it,

I wrote a little about the Immaculate Conception and the Orthodox take on it on my <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/pa3/OldWorldBasic/Q&A.html">Q&A page</A>.

The good Byzantines on either side of the divide don�t question Our Lady�s purity.

To Rusnak,

The reason I posted what I did was because some do seem to want to find impurity in the Theotokos prior to the Annunciation. Undoubtedly, the Theotokos grew in grace all her life but if the texts from the liturgy have any meaning at all one cannot say she was "just like us" with regard to sin prior to the Annuciation.

To Edward,

I would agree. From an Eastern perspective the Immaculate Conception is an "unnecessary" doctrine. Not because it is error. It is "unnecessary" because the traditional view of the Eastern Church has been to affirm the holiness of the Theotokos all her life. What the Latin Church emphasizes on December 8th each year can be fully harmonized with the Eastern perspective (unless one misunderstands what the doctrine actually teaches.)

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

DTBrown,
Our Tradition speaks of the holiness of the Theotokos before the Annunciation(i.e the Her Nativity, being in the Temple, etc). I have questions for you: did the Virgin undergo theosis? Was she human? Did she have free will to say "no" at the time of Annunciation? Does the Latin dogma of the Immaculate Conception carry more weight than the Immaculate Conception of our Lord? The IC dogma says if you are in communion with the "catholic" Church you have to accept it or else you stand ship-wrecked in the faith. There is nothing immaculate about the IC dogma and is contrary to Orthodox understanding and to true communion. Perhaps for some uniates it is not contrary and validated as a particular expression of truth that has a right to live. If you don't believe in it why should anyone else believe in it? Because it is the Roman Catholic Church! Baloney and salami on top of it! Let's not start playing God by attributing more to the Theotokos than there is already. This is the danger that leads to the wrong path. Holiness in the human being stems from God's grace but God has not impeded the process of theosis. Born and gifted people continue seeking their theosis.

To Robert,

You misunderstand what the Immaculate Conception is all about. To answer your questions:

The Theotokos grew in grace all her life.

Yes, the Theotokos was human.

Yes, the Theotokos was free to say no at the Annuciation (thank God she did not!)

The Conception of our Lord is of no comparison to the Conception of our Lady. His was by the Holy Spirit. He is God. Hers was a natural conception with human parents. She was only human...nothing more.

The Immaculate Conception does NOT mean that the Theotokos could not die as is often stated by some Orthodox polemicists. It also does NOT mean the Theotokos would be more than human. Was Eve (before the fall) more than human?

Back to the subject of this thread, however. The Feast of the Presentation of the Theotokos in the Temple is next month (November 21st). I've cited some of the verses from the liturgy already that stress the holiness of this 3 year old little girl as she entered the Temple. One of the images presented in the liturgy is the reaction of the angels:

"Beholding the entry of the All-Pure, the angels were struck with amazement, seeing how the Virgin entered into the Holy of Holies." (From Matins, Canticle Nine, First Canon)

Certainly, it's not just the angels who are "struck with amazement" about this "most pure" young maiden "without spot" entering the Temple. We should be too.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

For us, the Immaculate Conception is a matter of indifference. It is its status as a dogma that is the rub. On the other hand, since we are not in communion with Rome, it is better for us to observe how the Latin and Greek Catholics work out their differences on this issue. What a learning experience this will be for our Orthodox people! Meanwhile, for us, a little refreshing of our minds from a great Orthodox Saint, and from our pure tradition, on the origins of the Latin/Greek Catholic conflict as to the IC dogma:


"Concerning the fall and the resulting distortion of human nature, John [Climacus] is indeed highly negative, although never sweepingly condemnatory in the manner of Augustine...; he nowhere says that the fall has led to a total corruption. But when he speaks about the condition prior to the fall-about humankind's true and natural state, which in Christ we can now regain-he is not only affirmative but optimistic. John is no Manichaean. Human nature in its entirety, body as well as soul, is God's creation, and is therefore good:'"God neither caused nor created evil."' Sin is extrinsic to our true personhood: '" No one wants to sin against God."' There are many natural virtues, but no natural vices... ."
(John Climacus by Paulist Press.)

Let me add one more reference from Matins for the Feast of the Presentation of the Theotokos in the Temple:

"Thy wonders, O pure Theotokos, surpass the power of words. For in thee I see
something beyond speech; a body that was never subject to the taint of sin.
Therefore in thanksgiving I cry to thee: O pure Virgin, thou art truly high
above all." (Refrain and Troparion from the Ninth Ode at Othros--Translation by Bishop KALLISTOS and Mother Mary)

A friend sent me the translation of the phrase "a body that was never subject to the taint of sin" from two other translations:

The
SJKP [St John of Kronstadt Press] version reads "a body impervious to the movement of sin"; the translation by Nicholas Orloff reads
"for thy body I acknowledge to be ineffably free from the pollution of
sin".

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

[This message has been edited by DTBrown (edited 10-30-2000).]

Hello all,

I have been reading the Forum for several months, this is the first time that I post a message. I am a Catholic of the Roman Rite, and I want to get a deeper knowledge of the Eastern Churches. My wife and I will be attending a Divine Liturgy soon. The nearest parish for us is St. John Chrysostom (Byzantine - Ruthenian/Van Nuys)in Seattle, Washington.

I found it really interesting that, during the Mass for the Feast of All Saints by Pope John Paul II, a meditation on the Dormition of Mary by the 8'th Century Patriarch of Constantinople, St. Germain, was read.

I would like to hear your thoughts. Is anybody acquainted with St. Germain's meditation or can provide a link to read it?

God bless you all!

Clemens

I forgot to include the link for the article regarding St. Germain's meditation included in the Pope's Mass. Here it is:
http://www.ewtn.com/news/index.htm

and a quote:

"In today's ceremonies at St. Peter's Basilica, a
message from Munificentissimus Deus was read,
along with a commentary on the Assumption written
by the Patriarch St. Germain of Constantinople in the
early 8th century. The patriarch's commentary was a
meditation on the "dormition" of the Virgin-- a theme
which is a common topic of reflection for the Eastern churches. "

Clemens

Clemens,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Texts of St. Germanus of Constantinople's sermon on the Dormition of the Mother of God, as well as by other Church Fathers, may be found in a book published by Saint Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1998, entitled ON THE DORMITION OF MARY, translated by Brian E. Daley, S.J.

This text is truly beautiful.

Pado

Padova,

Thank you very much for the information! I will order it.

Clemens