www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Byzantine Catholic vs OCA Worship

Going back to pre-Aleksander Toth schism, these OCA parishes were fromed from Subcarpathian and Galician Rusyn Greek Catholic parishes who used Rusyn Prostopinije Chant and the South-West Rus' (Ruthenian) Recension and not the "Moscovite" Recension and liturgical music. Initially, these churches and their parishioners were the same.

Ung-Certez

Dear, in Christ,

I enjoy threads like this one. It is always interesting to notice the particular rubrics and customs of the different Churches. I love good choir music which speaks to my soul, and appreciate the importance of congregational singing too. The customs and their history make such a fascinating story. The diversity is part of the glory of God's holy Church.

But I had a reaction to the title of this thread, I am sure unexpected and unintended by the poster. Because it is not only possible to focus on the differences in our Churches, their customs and traditions. We might think that one such custom was better, or incompatable with the other. As if our worship was opposed to the worship of another. ["Bzyzantine Catholic vs. O.C.A. worship"]

Of course our worship is not "vs." or opposed to one another, and that which separates and distinguishes is so small, compare to what we share in Christ.

One poster remembers to point out that once we were one. And the divergent customs did not distinguish us, but only enriched us. How comforting and promising it is to remember that time. It makes it possible to hope, that by God's grace, we may experience it again soon.

But whenever that comes in God's holy providence, my hope is that our worship will never be seen in opposition, or contrasting in a dramatic way. I hope we are not tempted to judge one another's customs, or use our beloved local custom as the norm by which others' should be tested. Let us hold one another, and one another's communities, in great reverence, cherishing one another. Commending one another to Christ our God.

Of course, the title did not intend to suggest any such contrast. I apologize for sharing only my first reaction to it.

Yes, the pastor of St. Nicholas in Yonkers/White Plains is a married priest.

(Not to speak in Theophilos's place! but--)
Father Andor Rakaczi is a native of Hungary and was ordained for the Greek Catholic Eparchy of Hajdudorog, where the tradition of married clergy is alive and well.

Just to restate the same thing another way. Fr. Andor was ordained married in Hungary and later came to the US and remained a priest and married. His uncle is a Basilian Father in Matawan, NJ.

You are reading something into this that no one has said, Tony. My suggestion was that there is not the same level of participation without congregational responses, not a complete lack of participation. This is very different.

A person can sit and listen to someone else talk, and someone else can talk for them to some extent, but unless they engage in the dialogue themselves, the level of their active participation and communication is very different. And liturgy is of its very nature dialogue between man and God. Someone can come into a club meeting and sit down and not say a word. No one will know if he agrees, disagrees, belongs to the club, wants to be there, doesn't want to be there, whatever, if he doesn't participate somehow.

Tony, I'm not sure what one element you feel is being "zeroed in on". In terms of congregational participation I would agree that it is true that some just can't sing for whatever reasons, medical, tone deafness, etc. and there are definitely numerous other means in our beautiful Byzantine tradition to participate.

No one stated that liturgical participation is limited to just singing. To the contrary. I agree with Father Schmemann's observations as he correctly saw the lack of liturgical participation, manifested one way in the decline of parish/congregational responses at liturgical services, as symptomatic of a larger and more serious decline.

The great missionary and convert successes of such churches as the Antiochian Orthodox who greatly encourage congregational singing and participation validate his observations. The local Antiochian parish near us is composed at least 80% of converts, and they know most of the Octoechos by heart and are a vibrant and very active Christian community.

If the liturgy really is the "source and summit" of our Christian life how can we be just observers and expect that to carry over into our lives outside of church?

Dear in Christ Diak,

My response is based on several statements made earlier in this thread, among them,

Andy said:
It is obvious that Andy is equating singing, in the choir or otherwise, with participation.

and Orthodox Dutchman said:
Here the sense is clear, "participate...vocally." There are more ways to participate than just vocally.

Then Andy replied to the above post:
Again apparently equating singing as the sole form of participation.

To that you, Diak, responded:
Your words are clear that lack of singing equals lack of participation.

So, Diak, I am only reading what is written. That is all I can do. If I try to read minds that becomes very tricky. It is clear to me that for Andy the sole form of participation in the liturgy is by singing/saying the responses. I understand, by the above quotes from things you have written, that you agree with that.

Your contention that is technically accurate. Again from the above posts, however, that is all I can surmise.

The analogy of sitting and talking is well taken. However I hope that a good friend who is listening and indicating such by nodding, looks of affirmation, etc., would not be accused of not listening because he/she is not talking. Of course one has to reply to questions, commands and admonitions. This is one of the things that amazes me in many parishes where even the singing is good yet at the admonition "bow your heads to the Lord," all sing the response and do not bow their heads in any apparent way.

I have no doubt that your local Antiochian Orthodox parish is vibrant and that cogregational singing is part of that. The Antiochian Orthodox parishes I have visited in different states along the Atlantic seaboard were not that way however. They were vibrant but congregational singing was not strong.

For benefit of others could you please cite the source for the attributions to Fr. Schmemann? I think all would benefit from that.

Tony

His name was Alexis.

and he was a Saint

"Chekaj, prebachte!" Make that Aleksij Toth,who was canonized by the O.C.A. for being known as the "Father of Orthodoxy" in America because he converted over 10,000 or more Subcarpathian and Galican Greek Catholics back into the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church (now the OCA).

Ung-Certez

Make that Aleksij Toth,who was canonized by the O.C.A. for being known as the "Father of Orthodoxy" in America because he converted over 10,000 or more Subcarpathian and Galican Greek Catholics back into the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church (now the OCA).

Was it St. Alexis Toth or the Roman Bishops?

I agree with Tony's fine post disputing the equating of participation with vocalization. I think of liturgy as both prayer and performance (not in the sense of showmanship, but in the literal sense of performing ritual actions, making certain responses, etc.) The Divine Liturgy, with its limited variability from week to week, allows prayer and performance to be easily wedded, as the performance aspects become alomst automatic. On the other end of the spectrum, trying to vocally participate in a celebration of Matins for a Polyeleos saint on a Sunday in a Postfestive period can become almost an exercise wherein concern about the performance aspects leaves precious little room for prayer.

When in my (Ruthenian) parish, I fully engage in vocal participation, and feel like I have prayed. When I join a local OCA parish for Vespers, standing in the dark staring into the eyes of the icon of Christ lit with a flickering oil lamp, I may not utter a word, but there is no doubt in my mind that I have also prayed.

-- Ed Klages

When Tony and I had this discussion the other day, the point I made was this: I am very much in favor of congregational singing (as he is) but I have noted in several Byzantine Catholic parishes that there are always people singing but NOT participating. Now of course it is true in the Orthodox and Roman Catholics churches as well that there are people not participating in the liturgy; my point is that some people are singing their heart out and don't know what the heck they are saying! Let me illustrate some points:

1) I'll start with my own sin: I have noticed sometimes that I have been singing the Nicene Creed--making all the right sounds and mouth movements--and I was daydreaming about lunch!

2) My Protestant friend came to Church and noticed people singing while looking around, looking in their purses, looking out the window, winking at their friend, etc.

3) My mother-in-law (an agnostic), who is not a native English speaker, was singing the paschal troparion "by death he conquer-del" instead of "conquered death" until my wife and I started laughing and had to correct her. She was singing but didn't know what she was singing!

4) People who have been in a parish for 50 years still need that red book! Geez! OK, it's nice to have as a backup, and I look at it too from time to time. BUT to have your nose stuck in there and NOT LOOK UP kills any attempt to call THAT participation! I've seen people miss blessings, censings, etc. because they're too busy looking at the page!

Just my observations. I still wish the OCA had more congregational singing though!

In Christ,

anastasios

Whether you're OCA or Byzantine, music does not necessarily equal participation. But it helps.

Our Byzantine parish sings congregationally, and the only time things slide are when the cantors are not certain of a particular chant they are leading. Otherwise, the congregation ALL sings.

The OCA parish we used to go to had a choir. The clergy MISmanaged a transition from choir-led to congregational singing. Now they have 2 or 3 singers who sing ALONE without ANY congregational support. The congregation is older, and is not familiar with the new music the clergy are trying to implement there, and the clergy won't listen to advice from the laity on this matter.

Effectively managing participation is very important. I am glad to say that our priest is wise in managing the roles and responsibilities of the laity. It makes all the difference when it comes to a smooth-flowing Liturgy and congregational participation.