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I'm a Roman Catholic, and have been attending the Holy Liturgy at St. Nicholas of Myra Byzantine Catholic Church in White Plains, N.Y. Its a lovely, friendly church...no choir...there's a cantor and everyone sings the Holy Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. I also attend services at the Three Hierarchs Chapel at St. Vladimir's Seminary...this is where I became interested in Orthodox Christianity.
1. At St. Nicholas, why don't they give out the blessed bread & wine (not sanctified) at the end of the service like they do at the OCA churches that I've attended?
2. Why is there only one icon on an icon stand in the front of the church whereas at OCA churches I always see 3 icon stands with icons for veneration?
3. Why does almost nobody venerate this icon at St. Nicolas whereas at OCA churches everybody makes a beeline to the icons when they enter the church?
4. I believe that the Russians venerate icons the most of all Orthodox Christians, it this true? What about Greek Orthodox?
5. On Saturday evening I attended the Holy Liturgy (in English) at St. Michael's Ukrainian Catholic Church...wow...I'm sad to say that 98% of the people there were in their 70's or older...the service was the least Orthodox of the Holy Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom that I've seen yet! Nowadays, is this typical of Ukrainian Catholic Churches in the U.S.?

Dear Andy,

Whatever comparisons that you make amongst parishes, please be careful not to use Three Hierarchs Chapel at SVS as a reference point unless comparing it with other SEMINARIES.

I worshipped and studied there for three years. It is not a normal parish! It is a chapel (with no Church Council) filled with knowledgable and knowledge-seeking Orthodox Christians, some of whom have sacrificed $100,000 or more in personal income by putting aside secular jobs in order to study there.

I would suggest making a trip to any of the three Orthodox parishes in Yonkers or the numerous ones on Long Island before drawing any conclusions.

May God guide your every step.

In Christ.

Andy,

Firstly I second wholeheartedly what Andrew J. Rubis suggests. SVS is not a parish and the liturgical life here is not the same as in a parish. Some of the differences you have noted however are legitimate differences in practice among various ethnic jurisdictions/traditions. A considerably expanded but more appropriate title to this thread you began would have been "Carptho-Russian/Ruthenian and Great Russian (Muscovite) parish usages in the USA compared." Again, you could still not take the SVS usage as normative for a parish, although it is not too far off in most ways.

Carpatho-Russians and Ukrainians have the tetrapod while Great Russians have the analogion in the center of the parish churches. Greek parish churches seem to have neither. I am sure you can find other differencees among other jurisdictions.

Lastly, only bread is given at the end of Divine Liturgy not bread and wine. Bread and wine are the "zapivka" to wash down the Sacred Species and this is given after communion, something very practical. Again, bread alone is after liturgy.

At the end of Vespers or during Vigil bread (together with wine and oil) is also distributed.

Tony

Andy,

On your comment about the Ukrainian church being the least Orthodox, did this have anything to do with the Liturgy being recited and not sung? This is a common thing in the Ukrainian parishes. No incense, sometimes not even any altar boys. Very Roman Catholicish.

Andy, the only parishes in North America which keep Orthodox Pascha (Old Calendar) are Ukrainian Catholic.

Unfortunately you can find latinizations present in many Eastern Catholic Churches whether Ukrainian, Ruthenian, Melkite, Maronite, Armenian, etc. and there can be often very great variations between parishes even if they are near each other and in the same Eparchy.

Another observation (this is a serious one!)... when I have attended the Holy Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom at OCA Churches there was always some sort of a choir, and the rest of the people just stood there and hardly uttered a word whereas in both the Byzantine Catholic and Ukranian Catholic Churches there was very active participation by all. At the BC Church evrybody sang the liturgy and at the UC Church everyone spoke the liturgy. I have not yet visited a Melkite Church so I can't comment on their level of participation. I wonder if the OCA views this lack of participation in their Holy Liturgy as a problem.

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Andy,

Comparing Carpathian Plainchant to Russian Choral music and perfomance is, well, comparing apples and oranges. This issue of music is not a Catholic versus Orthodox issue, it is an ethnic issue (really and then some).

Carpathian Plainchant usually is sung congregationally, whether it be an Orthodox parish or Byzantine Catholic. The issue of Russian music as we have it today and the level of participation of the congregation is certainly discussed. I think that to say, however, that singing = participation can be erroneous. Singing is one form of participation, but not the only.

Tony

I agree with Tony's assertion regarding participation.

To push the diversity of valid models further, we look toward Mediterranean Orthodoxy (Greece, Albania, Macedonia, Southern Italy, Syria, Cyprus, etc.) where we often find one or two psalts responding to the the prayers and petitions. When done by masters, I find myself overwhelmed by the beauty and glory of this style of worship and convinced that anything I might contribute would be thoroughly inadequate.

In Christ.

In my Greek Orthodox parish, only the chanters participate in the liturgy vocally. When I'm in the congregation, I sing along, but the rest are quiet. I don't see this as normal. People should participate.

I agree...as a Roman Catholic raised under Vatican II, I always believed that it was crucial and absolutely tantamount for the people to fully participate...I think that American Protestants raised with congregational singing would also agree; however, there seems to be a disconnect here because Orthodox Priests and seminarians keep saying how we people can participate silently�they don�t seem to understand that they�re having all the fun while relegating the congregation to a minimal role that the Western Church hasn�t seen since medieval times.

Dear Andy, Father Alexander Schmemann of blessed memory definitely identified the lack of participation in the OCA services (because only a choir was singing and not the congregation as a whole) as a problem and wrote about this very issue.

While we can listen to the words, I would suggest there is not the level of participation and internalization of the texts and theology present unless we ourselves also proclaim these through our active participation in singing, chanting, reading, etc.

But that's not to say I don't love beautiful choirs or proficient cantors.

I continue to believe that lack of congregational singing does not necessarily equal lack of congregational participation.

I have been in parishes that sang but seemed impervious to some, indeed many, of the liturgical actions that were taking place. One could say that the noticed lack of veneration of icons, lack of response to certain actions of priest or deacon, and lack of certain typically Orthodox postures such as the prostration all indicate a lack of participation. In fact, I suggest that all of the above do indeed reflect a lack of participation in the liturgy.

It would be nice if in all places and at all times congregations would really participate. To zero in on one element of participation seems rather narrow.

Andy:

Glory to Jesus Christ!

My father-in-law serves the St. Nicholas in White Plains, and so I have been there many times in the past 3+ years.

I must point out that, in terms of lay participation in the chanting of the Liturgy, this church is atypical of BC churches in the NJ-NY-CT area.

The likely reason? The cantor, Mr. Frank Lucas, a former seminarian, is probably the most proficient cantor in the Passaic Eparchy. His command of the plain chant is exemplary. And you should hear him lead the Resurrection Matins -- I nearly shed tears during the first ode.

In Christ,
Theophilos

Dear Theophilos,

Please check your private messages when you have a chance, I have just sent you a little note. Thanks!

So the priest there is married, I take it?